Vocal tracking techniques that might help with pitch?

heatmiser

heatmiser

mr. green christmas
Hi,

For someone who isn't tone deaf, but does struggle at times with pitch, are there any recommendations during the tracking process to help with this?

I used to just play the full mix at a healthy volume and belt it out which worked sometimes, but often not. I read some ideas here years ago that seemed to help me, but I feel I've gone astray and am struggling with pitch again.

Some things I remember reading were:

* mute the bass guitar during playback when tracking vocals. I think it was suggested the bass in particular might mask potential pitch issues in the singer's lower register, so best to mute it. I've been doing this and I think it might help?
* keep the level of the backing tracks low relative to your voice. I guess just so you can hear what you're doing clearly?
* keep one ear cup of your phones partly or entirely off your ear. I guess so you can hear your voice in the room as well as in the mix? I do this roughly half the time, but not sure if it helps?

Any other thoughts, tips or ideas? Other than singing lessons...lol
 
heatmiser said:
Any other thoughts, tips or ideas? Other than singing lessons...lol
Click to expand...

You covered some of the common tips...but practicing the vocal part until all the pitch-challenged areas are comfortable to you will go a long way.
If you can sit at a piano and play the melody notes while singing with them....you can confirm that you are on target. You can do that using other instruments, but I find a piano works best...if you have one. Even a piano sample will do.

Getting lessons will do the same thing.
 
Thanks miro. That certainly makes sense. I was thinking more in terms of the actual act of tracking, assuming you've already learned the part reasonably well, but to your point, the better you know it, the less you probably have to worry about the other stuff when the time comes.
 
I don't do the "one can off" thing, I find it too distracting, but I put the music in one ear, relatively softly, and my voice in the other, a bit louder - and dry, no "make you feel comfy" reverb - just hides the truth.

All that said, I do takes that I'm happy with at the time, and when I go and listen to them later its WTF was going on there? How did I miss that I was so flat (and it's ALWAYS flat with me... :mad:)

So much quicker if you have your "engineer" listening along who stops you and says "Nope. Pitch. Rolling again in 3,2,1..." but that opportunity hasn't come along much in my solo home recording career. I like doing it for others though... :)
 
Armistice said:
I don't do the "one can off" thing, I find it too distracting, but I put the music in one ear, relatively softly, and my voice in the other, a bit louder - and dry, no "make you feel comfy" reverb - just hides the truth.

All that said, I do takes that I'm happy with at the time, and when I go and listen to them later its WTF was going on there? How did I miss that I was so flat (and it's ALWAYS flat with me... :mad:)

So much quicker if you have your "engineer" listening along who stops you and says "Nope. Pitch. Rolling again in 3,2,1..." but that opportunity hasn't come along much in my solo home recording career. I like doing it for others though... :)
Click to expand...

God, I would love to have someone there to call out my bullshit takes in the moment! What a great thing that would be.

LOL @ comfy reverb. On this lennon track, I was so fucking comfortable I might as well have been on an easy chair...limiter, compression, delay, reverb...you name it. There was no way I wasn't gonna sound awesome. lol Idiot.

Yup, I too walk away from takes riding high...nailed it! Only to listen later (usually after sharing with others) and cringe. That's a weird phenomenon.

Interesting about how you pan in the cans like that. Maybe I'll try it. Thanks!
 
heatmiser said:
Thanks miro. That certainly makes sense. I was thinking more in terms of the actual act of tracking, assuming you've already learned the part reasonably well, but to your point, the better you know it, the less you probably have to worry about the other stuff when the time comes.
Click to expand...

Right...if you have it down, it should be a problem to track it as long as you can find the right balance between your voice and the other tracks in you headphone mix. When people can't hear themselves correctly, or they they can't hear their voice within the context of the music...and the balance between the their voice in the headphones and how they hear it in their own "head"...it can be enough to throw some people off pitch...they're either chasing their voice or the music.

I don't know what makes things comfortable for others....I only know when it sounds comfortable to me.
So...you have to kind find that balance yourself.
I've known some singers that can't seem to get enough level of their own voice...and others who like to hear more of their "head" voice rather than the headphone mix.
Also...some like it dry, others wet. I personally like some reverb in the cans, I think it helps for me to hear the singing in the mix.
 
miroslav said:
Right...if you have it down, it should be a problem to track it as long as you can find the right balance between your voice and the other tracks in you headphone mix. When people can't hear themselves correctly, or they they can't hear their voice within the context of the music...and the balance between the their voice in the headphones and how they hear it in their own "head"...it can be enough to throw some people off pitch...they're either chasing their voice or the music.

I don't know what makes things comfortable for others....I only know when it sounds comfortable to me.
So...you have to kind find that balance yourself.
I've known some singers that can't seem to get enough level of their own voice...and others who like to hear more of their "head" voice rather than the headphone mix.
Also...some like it dry, others wet. I personally like some reverb in the cans, I think it helps for me to hear the singing in the mix.
Click to expand...

Thanks miro. You've given me some good things to think about. I'm really struggling with this now, so It's good just to hash it out, even if I don't do anything tangibly different, I have to think that writing and thinking about it might get me more focused next time it comes up.

Honestly, my favorite thing is to wait until every other track is finished so I can sing along with the whole "band", and I like to crank it and just ride the wave. That is most enjoyable to me, and sometimes it has yielded good results actually, but usually not. There's a balance to be found there somewhere. I just haven't found it yet.
 
Yeah I think knowing the lyrics inside out is huge. Even when I track my own songs I forget half the lyrics and go into panic during the take. Printing them and hanging them up is a good idea.

Last night, Heat, I just took out the acoustic and found all the notes to the melody I need to sing and went through them on there, just singing each one. I feel it helped a lot to pick out the notes. Then I went from playing notes and singing them to strumming full chords and trying to remember the notes I picked out, then sing them. It seemed to work pretty well. I'll see if it holds up when I move to tracking this part...lol. For some reason it is easier for me to play the part live and sing it than to sing it over a pre-recorded part of the same thing. Very odd.
 
Nola said:
Yeah I think knowing the lyrics inside out is huge. Even when I track my own songs I forget half the lyrics and go into panic during the take. Printing them and hanging them up is a good idea.

Last night, Heat, I just took out the acoustic and found all the notes to the melody I need to sing and went through them on there, just singing each one. I feel it helped a lot to pick out the notes. Then I went from playing notes and singing them to strumming full chords and trying to remember the notes I picked out, then sing them. It seemed to work pretty well. I'll see if it holds up when I move to tracking this part...lol. For some reason it is easier for me to play the part live and sing it than to sing it over a pre-recorded part of the same thing. Very odd.
Click to expand...

Well, while I don't find it easier to sing while playing, I generally think I get a better feel on the vocal take when playing guitar too. I just don't often get a good enough sound on both to use those takes. Not sure why, but something about singing while playing makes it flow a little better.

Interesting about working out the notes on guitar...much like what miro said about a piano. I'm not normally that methodical about things, but it might be worth it for me to try. Can't hurt! Thing is, I can't always play what I can sing, nor can I always sing what I play, but for the basic root notes of a melody, that might help me. Thanks.
 
Record your first usable vocal take, listen to it a whole bunch.. Listen in the car. Listen at work. Keep listening. Listen again. Give it a couple weeks of listening.
By then you have the performance internalized and should be able to rip it when you take another pass at it.

Also.. sounds glib, but practice practice.. if I've been singing 3 nights in a row it's a lot easier than if I haven't sang in a month.
Or sing a few nights in a row, then take 1 or 2 nights off then come back to it.

Keep monitoring volume not-too-loud, because loudness (for me anyways) causes the pitch to distort a few cents and the whole tracked vocal ends up consistently off by the same tiny amount.
 
Also I started getting thyroid nodules a couple years back- can't recommend em enough for vocals.
If you have the chance GET THYROID NODULES.
 
Autotune!!!

(well, Melodyne actually)

But seriously, use it to analyze the vocal track. I think it helps to see where you are off and by how much, in a quantitative format. Then you can go back and practice those areas. For me, it's almost always transition notes. You don't have to save the 'tuned' track if you think tuning vocals is 'cheating'. But you can save the tuned track, then listen to your take they way it should sound, in the context of the song, so you have a good track to practice to. When you fix the sour spots, retake the vocal without any tuning. In this way, Melodyne is a practice tool and not printed to the final version.

I used to tune my vocals when I first started, but I haven't felt I had the need in the past couple of years.

I haven't heard of muting the bass track before. Will give that a try next time I record.
 
Chili said:
Autotune!!!

(well, Melodyne actually)

But seriously, use it to analyze the vocal track. I think it helps to see where you are off and by how much, in a quantitative format. Then you can go back and practice those areas. For me, it's almost always transition notes. You don't have to save the 'tuned' track if you think tuning vocals is 'cheating'. But you can save the tuned track, then listen to your take they way it should sound, in the context of the song, so you have a good track to practice to. When you fix the sour spots, retake the vocal without any tuning. In this way, Melodyne is a practice tool and not printed to the final version.

I used to tune my vocals when I first started, but I haven't felt I had the need in the past couple of years.

I haven't heard of muting the bass track before. Will give that a try next time I record.
Click to expand...

I can't remember who suggested that...I kind of wondered if it was you! lol Anyway, it may have been directed at me specifically due to my deep voice getting masked by the bass guitar, or it could have been general advice I just read. I can't remember. It seems to help with lower register pitch anyway. Sometimes I even mute all but the essentials...a guitar or two, a beat, etc. Then I can really hear what my voice is doing, but it's not as fun that way, plus I feel like I sacrifice some energy not hearing more of a full backing, you know?

I do consider tuning vocals cheating, but I am not above cheating. I'm still happily using 1999 tech though, so I couldn't use melodyne even if I had it. Using it more for analysis sounds kind of cool though. I could probably geek out on that for a while if I had the chance. I hear people more and more talking about analyzing tracks...not just vocals...never 100% sure what they mean, but it sounds very official!
 
I will agree that any tuning program can help a singer by making it clear where they are not hitting notes as they wish. In the past for a guy who may not have been singer material, I melodyne adjusted his original track (quite drastically) for him to sing along with while re-tracking. His resulting second-fourth takes were way better with him singing along with the 'over perfect' track.

I work with a guy recently that almost invariably hits his upper register notes above desired pitch and his lower register a tad lower. Melodyne showed him exactly what he was doing wrong and he has become way better by being aware of his tendencies.

I still fine tune his ass tho for the better of the recording... :)
 
heatmiser said:
Hi,

For someone who isn't tone deaf, but does struggle at times with pitch, are there any recommendations during the tracking process to help with this?

I used to just play the full mix at a healthy volume and belt it out which worked sometimes, but often not. I read some ideas here years ago that seemed to help me, but I feel I've gone astray and am struggling with pitch again.

Some things I remember reading were:

* mute the bass guitar during playback when tracking vocals. I think it was suggested the bass in particular might mask potential pitch issues in the singer's lower register, so best to mute it. I've been doing this and I think it might help?
* keep the level of the backing tracks low relative to your voice. I guess just so you can hear what you're doing clearly?
* keep one ear cup of your phones partly or entirely off your ear. I guess so you can hear your voice in the room as well as in the mix? I do this roughly half the time, but not sure if it helps?

Any other thoughts, tips or ideas? Other than singing lessons...lol
Click to expand...

Those hints are all good. It's not so much that the bass masks pitch issues in the lower register, and more that it fools the brain into thinking the pitch he or she is singing should be lower (so it can cause singers to sing flat).

The other thing yo can try is to give your self a pitch reference . . . a starting note, or even a melody line to sing along to.
 
fat_fleet said:
Keep monitoring volume not-too-loud, because loudness (for me anyways) causes the pitch to distort a few cents and the whole tracked vocal ends up consistently off by the same tiny amount.
Click to expand...

I've been thinking about this bit right here...I wonder why that is? I too have found that higher monitoring volume (even assuming I have the ratio of vocal to backing correct) tends to give me pitch problems, although not necessarily consistently throughout. At higher volumes, I seem to get into it more and deliver a more spirited performance, but it's more likely to be off.

jimmys69 said:
I will agree that any tuning program can help a singer by making it clear where they are not hitting notes as they wish. In the past for a guy who may not have been singer material, I melodyne adjusted his original track (quite drastically) for him to sing along with while re-tracking. His resulting second-fourth takes were way better with him singing along with the 'over perfect' track.

I work with a guy recently that almost invariably hits his upper register notes above desired pitch and his lower register a tad lower. Melodyne showed him exactly what he was doing wrong and he has become way better by being aware of his tendencies.

I still fine tune his ass tho for the better of the recording... :)
Click to expand...

Interesting...that's kind of like what chili was describing above. You get a somewhat usable take, tune the crap out of it, and then sing along to that. That's something I would try if I had tuning software. Pretty cool idea actually, although I might find it disconcerting to be singing along with the t-pain/cher version of myself...I mean, who wouldn't?

gecko zzed said:
Those hints are all good. It's not so much that the bass masks pitch issues in the lower register, and more that it fools the brain into thinking the pitch he or she is singing should be lower (so it can cause singers to sing flat).

The other thing yo can try is to give your self a pitch reference . . . a starting note, or even a melody line to sing along to.
Click to expand...

That part about fooling the brain sounds very familiar...maybe it was you I read that advice from originally? I think when I'm off, I'm usually flat, so...

A reference is a good idea too. I've written some songs where the first verse starts right in on the first beat and have forgotten to give myself any lead in instruments (other than a beat of some sort for timing). Damn, it's hard to just jump right in on pitch with no context! So yeah, maybe I could just hum the melody as a guide, or play it on an instrument first...hmmm.

Some good thought folks. Thank you!
 
heatmiser said:
I might find it disconcerting to be singing along with the t-pain/cher version of myself...I mean, who wouldn't?
Click to expand...

I don't know, with the right outfit and the kids acting like papparazzi....

I'm not a great singer, it's not like I can give empirically expert advice, but here's another idea. I don't usually get into the groove and loosened up until the 2nd verse. You've seen that when we did the Dead cover. Sometimes I'll switch the verses around so I'm singing the 1st verse in the 2nd verse position. Then I'll sing it again in the proper order so the 2nd verse is good. Then cut n paste the sections around.

I thought you moved on to computer based recording with Reaper. I remember when I first heard your tunes, you were using a cassette recorder. :) I remember being impressed that you could eek out a great recording with that thing.
 
Chili said:
I don't know, with the right outfit and the kids acting like papparazzi....

I'm not a great singer, it's not like I can give empirically expert advice, but here's another idea. I don't usually get into the groove and loosened up until the 2nd verse. You've seen that when we did the Dead cover. Sometimes I'll switch the verses around so I'm singing the 1st verse in the 2nd verse position. Then I'll sing it again in the proper order so the 2nd verse is good. Then cut n paste the sections around.

I thought you moved on to computer based recording with Reaper. I remember when I first heard your tunes, you were using a cassette recorder. :) I remember being impressed that you could eek out a great recording with that thing.
Click to expand...

That is an interesting idea, as I've noticed a few tracks lately, including my own, where the vocal really doesn't settle in until further along in the song. To some extent I feel that's appropriate in terms of building up intensity towards the end, but the start still has to be strong, and it seems some of us can't really get into a groove until we've been at it for a minute or two. Changing up the order of verses temporarily might help with this. Although ironically, for my part, I often sing that first verse a ton of times on aborted takes, and really wind up "practicing" that more than the later sections of the song, so you'd think I'd be strongest on that one, but the first verse is typically my weakest. Strange.

I really enjoyed cassette recording, but the physical issues with tape speed variations and warbling and whatnot really frustrated me. If you have good gear, and patience and if you're mechanically inclined, it's a good medium. For the more casual, shall we say, uh...lazy hobbyist such as myself, it was a pain! A couple of years after joining here, I moved up to a 1999 era Roland VS 2400. That thing is the best. I love it. I still have a Tascam 688 next to it jut in case, but I have no desire to switch to PC based recording. That thing does everything I want and much more. Other than tuning or analyzing tracks of course! lol
 
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