The "I can't sing" people!

The fundamental frequency does not DEFINE the sound, the feel, or anything musical about the sound (I mean it is not a musical DEFINITION of a note).

It doesn't define any of the things you list but the fundamental frequency is the frequency from which the note name is derived.
 
We have had discussions previously on this topic and the term "tone deaf" and there are those here who would claim there is no such thing. Recently a friend of mine and his wife decided to have a baby via a surrogate..This is not an inexpensive venture and when preparing the eggs for fertilization they discovered that his wife carried a gene that increases the chance of being "tone deaf".... about 4% of the population is born with this feature at a level that merits this label. like being born with blue eyes or brown eyes. They were able to somehow select or modify the eggs they used ..( not sure exactly how they did this but they did it) so that the child would not be born tone deaf... wow...

Here's an article on the topic The Genetics of Congenital Amusia (Tone Deafness):

If you have this it will be impossible to sing in key or play an instrument by ear....period end of discussion. This said, The other 96% are not all at the same level of musicality. Anyone who has played / jammed with several groups of musicians over the years knows some just "get it" and catch on to a tune almost instantly where others must struggle to figure a riff or melody out. Thus the same with singing. I sang a lot growing up and took a voice class in college. Yes breathing from your diaphragm is an important part of the singing process providing the energy / wind to get those vocal chords projecting ....but, like a car with no wheels ....all the gas in the world isn't going to get you down the road. If you can't hear that you are out of tune. breath technique is not going to help anything other than singing out of tune louder.
 
I know this is going to sound stupid but I never considered tone deafness at all. I know it exists......but I guess I assumed that people who wanted to be singers (or other musical roles) knew enough to avoid the art if they were tone deaf. But.....that assumes that they knew they were tone deaf. I guess if they didn't.......no amount of feedback from us would ever make sense to them.

Good point TAE.
 
I know this is going to sound stupid but I never considered tone deafness at all. I know it exists......but I guess I assumed that people who wanted to be singers (or other musical roles) knew enough to avoid the art if they were tone deaf. But.....that assumes that they knew they were tone deaf. I guess if they didn't.......no amount of feedback from us would ever make sense to them.

Good point TAE.

It's really impossible to put yourself in that position.
I mean, you can 'imagine' being blind but, really, you can't; Not properly.

People who are legitimately tone deaf not only can't tell that they're singing the wrong note, but they can't tell that they're meant to be able to tell! lol.
Seriously, think about that. They don't know that they're meant to know... Twists my mind a bit.

It's the equivalent of thinking you just strum a guitar and move your hand wherever and the right tune comes out,
but because that's a physical skill and knowledge of the instrument is required, no one ever really thinks that way.


It's not something I'll argue with anyone but I don't think I'll ever move on the idea that tone-deafness, or genuine inability to perceive differences in pitch, is a thing.
Now, contradictory to that these same people can tell the difference between "It's all good!" and "It's all good?" which is really just a difference in pitch.
That sort of baffles me, but I have met plenty of people who, when tested, simply could not tell me that two notes played on a piano were the same, or different.

The same people, when trying to sing, usually hovered around the same note regardless of what the melody was meant to be.

Some say that anyone with a voice can be taught. I usually say that anyone who demonstrates an awareness of pitch can be taught.

It's why I often say to 'bad' singers around here, "You're clearly aware of pitch", because there are plenty of people who are loose or inaccurate and really sound quite bad but they know up is up and down is down.
They're moving in the right direction at the right time, just not necessarily the right amount. :P
I'd liken that to playing an out of tune guitar quite well. They know what they're doing, but the instrument needs attention.
 
The thread is not really about tone deafness. It is about people who are most likely to have an advantage in musicality, but who claim that they cannot sing. The reasons are less likely to be psychoacoustic.

We have had discussions previously on this topic and the term "tone deaf" and there are those here who would claim there is no such thing. Recently a friend of mine and his wife decided to have a baby via a surrogate..This is not an inexpensive venture and when preparing the eggs for fertilization they discovered that his wife carried a gene that increases the chance of being "tone deaf".... about 4% of the population is born with this feature at a level that merits this label. like being born with blue eyes or brown eyes. They were able to somehow select or modify the eggs they used ..( not sure exactly how they did this but they did it) so that the child would not be born tone deaf... wow...

Yep. "wow". I don't buy it. It shouldn't be difficult for you to google up the designation of this "gene" or set of genes that monitor for tone deafness. That would certainly make the research paper you posted redundant.


Doesn't look like sound research to me. I'd go as far as to say that it is practically junk.

By the way, the research does not test for congenital tone deafness (or "amusia"). It assumes the 4% figure from somewhere (I don't know where).
 
Steen.....who could dispute your points? It's getting more and more clear as to why and how this "Can I Sing" section of the forum can be so frikkin' annoying sometimes.

Now......accurate timing in a singer is certainly not caused by tone deafness.....right? But we sure see a lot of bad tempo / timing in some of the posts. Just throwing that in to add to the overall conversation.:eatpopcorn:
 
Now, contradictory to that these same people can tell the difference between "It's all good!" and "It's all good?" which is really just a difference in pitch.
That sort of baffles me, but I have met plenty of people who, when tested, simply could not tell me that two notes played on a piano were the same, or different.

Very interesting example.

My problem with the piano thing is that, although I could tell you when the notes change, I may sometimes tell you that the same note is two different notes. Maybe second time you pressed the key harder or something, I don't know. If I hear a difference, I am not always sure if it is "pitch" that has changed. Even if I sing it back to you accurately, loudness change and all, I may not know if the pitch has changed.

Also if you play three notes going up and back to the same pitch, it may not be obvious to me that that is what you have done. But, once again, singing it back would not be the problem. Isolating what part of the change is "pitch", that's the issue.
 
I read an article a while back, about aphantasia, which is a condition of having no "mind's eye".

People with aphantasia cannot picture things or people. After reading the article, I wondered if there was an acoustic equivalent of no "mind's ear". That could be the cause of yet another kind of "tone deafness". There are so many possibilities. Does colourblindness have its acoustic equivalent? Whatever the possibilities, surely they are significantly reduced if you can express yourself musically in an area other than singing.

I think that the way I (and a lot of people) would reproduce a melody is to first "imagine it" -- hear it in my mind's ear, then instruct my conscious mind to render it to sound. This bypasses all the analytical skills of isolating pitch etc. Maybe there is also a feedback loop, as well, but I would be surprised if adjustments worked by isolating pitch.
 
I've always been a visual person. If I can't see it working in my head, it doesn't work in my head.
Doesn't really matter what it is. Folder + file structures on a computer, programming classes, repairing a machine, music...It's all visualised in some way.
I think, as a child, I probably 'saw' rudimentary sheet music before I knew what that was.

If you played an ascending melody and asked me to sing it back, I'd have a fussy visual image or rising steps, for example.
 
When I think of the 7 days of the week......for any reason......a picture with 7 squares in a row, starting with Sunday, pops up in my mind.....every time. Have no idea how that started. I think we use visuals in our mind to facilitate the "next step" or thought in terms of what we're dealing with at that moment. And when I'm playing any instrument......I visualize the next move the same way every time. Don't we all do that to some extent?

Not in the same thought......but when I think of any musical chord or note......I visualize it on a keyboard......having learned how to read music on an accordion. Just more of my 2 cents.
 
Don't we all do that to some extent?

I think that's the thing; No.

The 'racist' stereotype about Asian children being good at maths isn't really wrong, or racist. :p
Ok, Ok...they're not ALL good at maths, but in many schools they're taught with an abacus from day one, and have a visual understanding.
Once that foundation is there you can take away the abacus but that kid, in his head, is still using it.

The way we're taught maths is like describing a painting to someone whereas the Asian kids look at the damn thing.

I imagine, though, there are always some who just don't get it or can't understand it.
 
When I was teaching, there was a study, looking at the Asian results and the conclusion was that the kids were the same, but the teaching methods were very different - in many ways like ours was in the UK in the 50s and 60s. Learning but rote - times tables - regimented learning with strict discipline. This method of learning was scrapped because the kids didn't need to understand why, just that it gave the right results. As soon as teaching. by negotiation arrived, we were doomed. Asian kids were scared of their teachers and scared of their parents who realised the need for a good education and opting out was not an option.

Are we not leaning towards the notion that everybody has a right to be able to do everything, and some people are amazed when they have less than aptitude for it.
 
Doesn't look like sound research to me. I'd go as far as to say that it is practically junk.

By the way, the research does not test for congenital tone deafness (or "amusia"). It assumes the 4% figure from somewhere (I don't know where).

Mind pointing out what part of the research isn't "sound"? Researchers who have been spending their life long careers on this topic are part of this study and the studies referenced. I'm sure they'd enjoy hearing your dissatisfaction with their findings so far.

With regard to the 4% I am not sure where the estimate comes from but it is referenced in several publications mentioned in various articles and research on the subject. Here's a good one

Based upon my personal experience of knowing people that couldn't sing their way out of a wet paper bag if their life depended on it, I sure don't find it hard to believe that 4% estimate is close enough for government work.

I don't understand your point with regard to the study not "testing" for "congenital amusia" The study wasn't to determine if there was such a thing, it is now a known scientific fact that it is a real physical disability, the study was to determine if congenital amusia was in fact "passed on" genetically rather than an anomaly "birth defect" their research proved there is a genetic link to the disability and that indeed it can and is passed on through generations.

With regard to my friend and his In Vitro Surrogate baby...his wife has congenital amusia...in re running it through my head if I remember correctly when they harvested the eggs they tested each of them and removed any that carried the defective gene that causes amusia... The baby is now about a month old...I guess we'll see in a few years if the voodoo magic worked...My bud graduated from USC with a PHD in chemical engineering. He's a multi millionaire and paid handsomely for this extra added value. Not saying he couldn't have been duped but he's a pretty smart guy and I doubt this is bullshit.
 
Asian kids were scared of their teachers and scared of their parents who realised the need for a good education and opting out was not an option.

BINGO! I've been doing business in China for the last 11 years and live in So Cal where there are over 500,000 Chinese / the 2nd highest population of Chinese people in the U.S....When it comes to education they aren't playing...same with sports...if they are going to do it...it's 110%. Sure their smart but it's their incredible competitive attitude and intense impeccable work ethic that takes them to the top. But alas... if the are born with amusia...try as they might they aren't going to be winning any singing contest..:laughings:
 
Mind pointing out what part of the research isn't "sound"? Researchers who have been spending their life long careers on this topic are part of this study and the studies referenced. I'm sure they'd enjoy hearing your dissatisfaction with their findings so far.

Sarcastic appeal to authority is not science. That is all you have shown above.

You shouldn't let appeal to authority override what you can critique in black and white.

For a start, I cannot recall a research paper picking its sample population by asking musically impaired folk to invite relatives whom they deem to be musically impaired! That on its own trashes the research.

Musicality can run in families for reasons quite apart from genetics. Nothing in their study proves a genetic connection.

Worse, they can't even be sure if their "invited" sample contains non-congenitally impaired members.

Then we get on to cultural factors. There is no way to correct for musical preference. They also confuse musical standardization with musicality. I know people who have good musical ear who think some genres of music are a cacophony.

The research was so riddled with gaffes, I gave up reading much earlier than I intended. It simply wasn't worth it.

Don't be star struck. There are plenty of useless research articles out there.

With regard to the 4% I am not sure where the estimate comes from but it is referenced in several publications mentioned in various articles and research on the subject. Here's a good one

My point was that the absence of a reference in your original paper was inauspicious. A well reviewed paper would not have escaped having to give a citation at that point.

I don't understand your point with regard to the study not "testing" for "congenital amusia" The study wasn't to determine if there was such a thing, it is now a known scientific fact that it is a real physical disability, the study was to determine if congenital amusia was in fact "passed on" genetically rather than an anomaly "birth defect" their research proved there is a genetic link to the disability and that indeed it can and is passed on through generations.

You say you don't understand my point, then you state it, which is confusing. They don't know if the people in their sample have congenital amusia, let alone if it is genetic. All they did was ask folks with poor musical skills to invite relatives they imagined were the same........................... :laughings:

With regard to my friend and his In Vitro Surrogate baby...his wife has congenital amusia...in re running it through my head if I remember correctly when they harvested the eggs they tested each of them and removed any that carried the defective gene that causes amusia... The baby is now about a month old...I guess we'll see in a few years if the voodoo magic worked...My bud graduated from USC with a PHD in chemical engineering. He's a multi millionaire and paid handsomely for this extra added value. Not saying he couldn't have been duped but he's a pretty smart guy and I doubt this is bullshit.

More appeal to authority? Name that gene! It should take you no more than a few minutes to google it!
 
As I've mentioned previously........and don't hold it against me........my wife is a Clinical Psychologist. I am just her test subject I think. I rarely bring her into the HomeRecording world but did let her read of few of these posts on this topic. Now....she's does say that there is a condition that contributes to tone deafness.........but interestingly......she says that......like many brain abnormalities (not all) the condition comes in degrees of severity and can often be overcome with alternate learning therapy. Basically......through the use of other senses and other areas of the brain.......a person (as long as there's no brain damage) can likely learn to interpret tones normally..........and depending on how far the person goes with the intensity and duration of the (re) training.......the skill can be exceptional.

So...all that said......and she is making sure that I remind everyone that she is not an expert in the field of that disability......and having read through the posts here.......she is trying to tell me that most (not all) who have posted are describing their beliefs based on not having the disability itself......obviously.......and are mixing a lot of opinion with some fact and some folklore. She says that it's more likely that the "angry singers" we encounter are far more affected by simple common personality traits.....than a disability of some sort. In other words.......many...if not most.....people do not react well to negative reinforcement.

Square one?
 
As I've mentioned previously........and don't hold it against me........my wife is a Clinical Psychologist. I am just her test subject I think. I rarely bring her into the HomeRecording world but did let her read of few of these posts on this topic. Now....she's does say that there is a condition that contributes to tone deafness.........but interestingly......she says that......like many brain abnormalities (not all) the condition comes in degrees of severity and can often be overcome with alternate learning therapy. Basically......through the use of other senses and other areas of the brain.......a person (as long as there's no brain damage) can likely learn to interpret tones normally..........and depending on how far the person goes with the intensity and duration of the (re) training.......the skill can be exceptional.

So...all that said......and she is making sure that I remind everyone that she is not an expert in the field of that disability......and having read through the posts here.......she is trying to tell me that most (not all) who have posted are describing their beliefs based on not having the disability itself......obviously.......and are mixing a lot of opinion with some fact and some folklore. She says that it's more likely that the "angry singers" we encounter are far more affected by simple common personality traits.....than a disability of some sort. In other words.......many...if not most.....people do not react well to negative reinforcement.

Square one?

Oh great! Bring the wife into it Mick! :D

For sure none of us here are experts or even close to experts on this dodgy subject...but for those of us a little longer in the tooth who have traversed the test of time as musicians and still are asked to play with other musicians it can be assumed we probably have decent enough ears to identify that @ 4% not blessed with any possibility of "getting better" at it.. For sure I have met such unfortunates and it is sad kind of thing...Being able to sing and play music is an awesome endorphin stimulating soulful experience the likes of which there are not too many things other than sex that can naturally get you so high....
 
I've got a name for you. Bob Dylan. Personally, I don't think he can sing a lick, but others will say he's a great singer. I do think he's one of the best folk rock lyric writers of all time, though. Here's where the bucket and lid come into the scene. If he wasn't otherwise such a good musician, I'd say he can't carry a tune with a bucket...even if the lid was on tight. But, I've been shot down more than once for saying this. And I guess he did sing a little better, when he was younger, but seriously Bob, there comes a time...

It's all a vicious cycle, really. Family and friends tell someone they can sing. Whether it's because they don't want to hurt their feelings, or maybe it's because they themselves can't tell the difference, it can ultimately damage a person's EGO. And maybe they really can sing. But, think of it this way...if you ask "can I play guitar?" it's easier for someone to tell you yes or no. It's not a part of your body. Maybe guitar isn't your thing and you're more suited for keyboards or drums?

But to have to tell someone they can't sing...well, they only have one voice and they can't just switch it out for another. A guitar or keyboard is going to play a note in tune. Even if you don't have a musical ear, you could maybe still play the notes. But, you've telling them they can't and will never be able to sing. The instrument is their voice and if they can't hear something in tune, well, that's it in a nut shell. And yep, you have really hurt them, if they haven't acquired the necessary thick skin, artists need to have.

And like with Dylan, just because you say they can't sing, that doesn't mean others won't actually love their voice. There was a guy who won America's Got Talent, a couple of years ago. I didn't think he was that good of a singer, but the judges all swooned, especially the women. So, what do I know? I've had piano lessons, voice lessons, I was in everything musical in high school and majored in music education in college. I was in college choirs, men's glee club, concert band, yadda, yadda, yadda. I can carry a tune, but I honestly don't have a "lead singer" voice. Still, I don't think Bob Dylan can sing, nor could that guy who won AGT.

Talent is subjective. That even goes for bands, but we're talking about vocals and vocal talent is very subjective. Don't take just one person's point of view, but maybe after you hear it from several people that "sweetheart, you just can't sing", it might just be true. But, never give up. If you think you have the talent, and you have it in your gut to be a singer, who am I to say otherwise?
 
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