Chords Over Bassline?

[Raydio]

So you have your drum pattern layed out and a great bassline to compliment it. You know what key you are playing in and you're ready to add some chords. Problem is that you have these chords you're singing in your head but not much patience to run through ALL possible chords that exist in that scale to find out which chord you are singing. Just when you thought your problems couldn't get worst, there are also different INVERSIONS of each freakin' chord!!! If only there were some shortcuts based on the data you already have that you can help you find that mysterious chord (including the inversion if needed) faster. It sucks only knowing a little theory huh?

Anybody have tips relating to this problem??

 

[FALKEN]

if you can hear it in your head, you can find it on the neck. just work through it.

 

[Supercreep]

So you have your drum pattern layed out and a great bassline to compliment it. You know what key you are playing in and you're ready to add some chords. Problem is that you have these chords you're singing in your head but not much patience to run through ALL possible chords that exist in that scale to find out which chord you are singing. Just when you thought your problems couldn't get worst, there are also different INVERSIONS of each freakin' chord!!! If only there were some shortcuts based on the data you already have that you can help you find that mysterious chord (including the inversion if needed) faster. It sucks only knowing a little theory huh?

Anybody have tips relating to this problem??

Two things come to mind:

1) You're in the wrong line of work if you don't have the patience to audition each potential chord inversion.

2) The right one is the one that sounds best

3) A common mistake people make is overstating chord structure. Depending on the style of music, if the bass is carrying a note, you probably don't need to voice that note in the guitar chord. If a triad or diad will do, why use a barre chord? Fretting less extraneous notes will clean up the sound by keeping instruments out of each other's way. Imagine what the piece will sound like when it's done, and all the voices are stacked atop one another. You may be able to avoid walking on the bass with the guitars or vice-versa.

 

[NationalSandwic]

I agree with Supercreep on point 1.

Hearing chords 'in you head' and playing them is something you'll get better with with practice. nowadays i can work out a song (either from my head or the radio) almost instantly. (no lies)

understand that with invertions you're really only concerned with what's happening in the bass. ie. a chord inversion is defined by what the lowest note is, not by the entire voicing 'hierarchy'. so if you've got a bassline already, your inversions are decided. remember that although there are several parts played by individual instruments, the harmonic material is percieved as a whole. so if you play an open E minor on your guit you're in root position, but if the bass is playing a G, you're in second inversion regardless of the guit's inversion.

another thing to pay attention to is the top note of your chord. people perceive lowest notes first and highest second. so choose it well; be careful of clashes with melody. what goes on in-between those notes is up to you, and then you're into subtle harmonics territory.

but just use common sense. theory is useful, but, IMHO, not essential. and my theory is pretty solid. if you're writing from theory, you're bound to run into creating some boring ass music. know the rules, then forget them, calls rules are bullshit anyway. and if you don't know the rules, have the patience to sit & follow your gut. try just playing powerchords (fifths) to work out the basic progression you want. AND, it's just occured to me, don't assume your bassline is right...be prepared to fiddle with that too.

hope this helps a bit

 

[Raydio]

Thanks for the advice guys, I REALLY REALLY benefited from NationalSandwic's info. Quick question, in regards to PowerChords... If I come up with a pretty good progression just using powerchords; is there a known shortcut based on theory that will help me find the extra notes that I am looking for to compliment my melody?

 

[Gorty]

The beauty of playing power chords is that without delving to deep into theory is that the power chord is a root / fifth combination which makes these neither major or minor. So you can go through and start picking out the notes that make up the minor or major chord in question.

eg: say you were playing an A power chord / A5, you could pick out the notes from an A major chord and an A minor chord. Some notes will sound great and there will be no doubt that these particular notes work and then there will be some notes that just don't sit in with the melody being created.

As National and Supercreep have mentioned theory is very useful but the ear is the defining tool and can work contrary to what theory states.

Just a basic process which can be helpful, I use this method here and there, sometimes it works and helps me, other times it gets me nowhere!


I hope this helps you somewhat!

Kev

 

[sile2001]

A friend of mine made a very good point about theory the other day. Music was around a LONG time before any theory "rules" were. Theory was invented as a way to describe what was happening musically, not dictate it. The so-called "rules" were really just a set of observations, such as "if such and such a chord is played, it is most often resolved with this chord." Somewhere down the line, people took the observations of theory and made them rules... "if such and such a chord is played, you have to resolve it with this chord."

Theory is a prime target for the saying "rules were made to be broken."

 

[astoebe]

yup...i'm in a tonal theory class right now, and the composers didn't think about these rules they give us when they were writing, the rules were made up later to theorize why they did certain things...

 

[NationalSandwic]

there's a grave mistake in ever thinking about theory as a set of rules. if that's how it's been taught, then it's problematic. there are simply principles and systems and tendencies.

sure, composers didn't think about "rules" but they certainly knew what they were doing and followed principles and systems when they were composing, even if formal academic analysis only came about afterwards.

a pure, abstract (ie theoretical) intellectual understanding of music is always present in the great composers. academics has been, is, and always will be about describing and re-describing (and there's value in that.) But no academic worth his/her salt would preach 'rules' to a theory class.

i think the tendency to adopt principles/methods/systems as rules lies in those would-be composers who want to find a simple & easy way out of seriously engaging with music.

that's my 2c.

with regards to the thread,
gorty makes a good point about the ear as a tool...and it takes a loooong time and a lot of practice to get the listening up to scratch alongside the playing & writing. but i disagree about the virtues of 5ths. it is because they are completely non-commital that the become leading. very few songwriters have managed to get by on majors and minors along. i read or watched a good interview with pearl jam once, where they were talking about the extreme limits of writing with power chords.

if you write like dylan or cohen, who are genuine poets, then the strength of the lyric & melody allow you to get by with a simple 3-chord accompaniment. i suppose even cobain wrote well enough to keep it supersimple. but if you write like blink 182 or avril, then the simple powerchord lines very quickly become boring and the songs become weak.

 

[brummygit]

So you have your drum pattern layed out and a great bassline to compliment it. You know what key you are playing in and you're ready to add some chords. Problem is that you have these chords you're singing in your head but not much patience to run through ALL possible chords that exist in that scale to find out which chord you are singing. Just when you thought your problems couldn't get worst, there are also different INVERSIONS of each freakin' chord!!! If only there were some shortcuts based on the data you already have that you can help you find that mysterious chord (including the inversion if needed) faster. It sucks only knowing a little theory huh?

Anybody have tips relating to this problem??

i personally think that you've done it the hard way round, IMO. as the instrument playing the chords is generally more distinct, and is what people tend to notice the most, i tend to write the chords first, and then write a bassline and drum part to compliment them. then again, i'm a guitarist, not a bass player/drummer, so maybe other people start with different priorities?
if you must continue to do it your way, then pretty much what's been said before, i just pick out the note that i can hear in my head, work out what note it is, and try its chord. my musical knowledge is zero, so i have to do it this way, but it does encourage you to experiment alot.

 

[grn]

I agree with brummygit, but to take it a step further, I come up with the musical idea first... the melody. Then I add chords, then I add bass, then add drums. That is only my writing process, not recording. I record it in the opposite direction.

 

[brummygit]

... I come up with the musical idea first... the melody. Then I add chords, then I add bass, then add drums. That is only my writing process, not recording. I record it in the opposite direction.

ditto to those comments too. funny isnt it how the recording process works the other way round to the writing...

 

[Supercreep]

Outstanding posts from NationalSandwic.

+1

 

[littlefish]

Whew...

... I come up with the musical idea first... the melody. Then I add chords, then I add bass, then add drums. That is only my writing process, not recording. I record it in the opposite direction.

ditto to those comments too. funny isnt it how the recording process works the other way round to the writing...

Until you two guys posted .... I thought maybe songwriting
had become a science .

Sometimes a line of lyric idea will take on a melody in my head,
then I approximate chord changes, then select a drum track and tempo, record a rough... sometimes with bass, then work on the lyrics against the rough to define melody.
I never turns out quite like the original in my head... but thats the way it happens.

Merry Christmas
John
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Check out "ALL THE WORLD" a song for Christmas Time

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageartist.cfm?bandID=319503

 

[NationalSandwic]

well, littlefish, the original question wasn't about songwriting, it was about chord methodology. flip-flopping around, guessing at chords, not knowing what your melody precisely is, will have the result that, No, it doesn't sound like you imagined.

with regards to grn's point, remember that the effect of a melody lies in the chords. you can sing all your words at the same pitch, and if you're creative in your harmonic structuring, it can actually sound great.

music is the area where natural science & spirit meet, whether you like it or not. do you know that the major scale (and, therefore, the entire tonal system YOU use today) was derived by a mathematician: Pythagoras? There's a massive system out there and you can either splash around the breakers, or you can go diving deep. Diving deep is better, imho. Everyone eventually gets sunburnt and bored splashing around the breakers.

(thanks Supercreep )

 

[guttapercha]

Skip the guitar chords for now and sing the melody.
Once the melody is there, presumably working with your bass-line, you will hear what needs to be there harmonically from the guitar or whatever.

Peace-out,

JD

 

[fraserhutch]

there's a grave mistake in ever thinking about theory as a set of rules. if that's how it's been taught, then it's problematic. there are simply principles and systems and tendencies.

sure, composers didn't think about "rules" but they certainly knew what they were doing and followed principles and systems when they were composing, even if formal academic analysis only came about afterwards.

a pure, abstract (ie theoretical) intellectual understanding of music is always present in the great composers. academics has been, is, and always will be about describing and re-describing (and there's value in that.) But no academic worth his/her salt would preach 'rules' to a theory class.

i think the tendency to adopt principles/methods/systems as rules lies in those would-be composers who want to find a simple & easy way out of seriously engaging with music.

that's my 2c.

I'm going to disagree with the above. Rules have been formulated wrt specific styles - gregorian chant, classical, romantic, impressionism, neo-classical, 12-tone, atonal, jazz, blues, modern rock, whatever. And the rules for each of the above differ to at least some degree.

IMHO, any composer worth his or her salt has a firm grasp on the rules of the style they are working in. A firm grasp of the rules gives you a foundation within to work. From there, you break the rules.

With respect to songwriting, it is my belief that one needs at least a passing aquaintence with the rules of the style you are working in to create anything non-trivial. From there you can break rules, but without that foundation it cannot be anything but accidental.

As to the origin of the rules, yes, it can be said that they are observations. But innovation does not occur in a vacuum - they broke a rule. Break it enough, and it becomes a rule in and of itself to achieve a certain effect or sound.

The fact that you can use your ear to determine a chord progression implies that you have some apriori knowledge of a harmonic structure you are after. That harmonic structure living in your head came from a set of rules, whether your explicitly aknowledge it or not.

My $0.02.

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