Making drum loops sound realistic

Yeah....you have to WHACK! a drum to give it some balls and character....at least when you are doing Rock, Pop, Metal or anything else where the drums drive the beat and lock the whole thing together.
There is something that just makes a drum sound alive when you hit it with a certain velocity.

Wimpy drums sound like shit.

And since this is about recording....you can control the overall volume of the drums...with the faders on your tracks, not just the velocity of the hits. ;)
 
There aint nothing worse that a wimp limp wristed drummer.

:D

My drummer buddy that does drums tracks for me...he's very "musical", he can use the whole kit creatively, but I have to say that he holds back sometimes, especially on the Snare hits...and I gotta tell him to hit the damn thing harder ( I have plenty of spare skins)....'cuz until the hits reach a certain velocity, it sounds lame, and it doesn't drive the beat like it should.
Toms can be played with a lighter touch for a lot of things....the ride can be subtle and still sound good....but when that Kick and Snare don't chug and grind with some authority....the beat just fizzles away, and it sounds more like the drums are following the rest of the instruments, instead of driving the beat.
 
I quit a band recently because the stupid fucking drummer wouldn't hit the drums hard enough. As a drummer myself playing guitar, I can't even describe the aggravation of being a better drummer than the actual drummer.
 
The thread that just keeps on giving...

I'd also point out, as a non-drummer using VSTi drums, that I don't actually know what a good recorded drum kit sounds like, because I've neither played, nor recorded one. I hear them in music all the time, of course, but never just on their own - and that's how you sort of have to assemble it, so really you just find a starting place and learn from there.

So best thing is to have a shot, put a tune up in the Clinic and see what the real drummers tell you is right / wrong about yer "drumming" , and learn that way. Rinse. Repeat.

No actual listener to my finished, released stuff, apart from people on this forum, can tell if my drums are real or not. Even here I've fooled plenty of listeners, but probably no real drummers.

When I can get stuff past Greg or RAMI and the other drummers here, I'll consider that I maybe know what I'm doing. Until then, it's all learning...
 
I'd also point out, as a non-drummer using VSTi drums, that I don't actually know what a good recorded drum kit sounds like, because I've neither played, nor recorded one. I hear them in music all the time, of course, but never just on their own - and that's how you sort of have to assemble it, so really you just find a starting place and learn from there.
Same here man, although I have had a few buddies send me some raw drum tracks so I can hear what a good recorded kit sounds like, but it's still a learning thing you know?

No actual listener to my finished, released stuff, apart from people on this forum, can tell if my drums are real or not. Even here I've fooled plenty of listeners, but probably no real drummers.
I have had people think some of my stuff had real drums on it, but not in this forum, the forums I'd been posting my songs in are at a totally different level (which in reality is lower, but they're also different types of forums, more like a place for buddies to hang out & pat each other on the back, regardless of the actual quality of the writing/recording/mixing)than this one for the most part....

When I can get stuff past Greg or RAMI and the other drummers here, I'll consider that I maybe know what I'm doing. Until then, it's all learning...
+1 man....


Back to the velocity thing, a lot of the drum samples I use sound quite the same at higher velocities, but then if I use a lower velocity, it doesn't quite fit what I'm trying to achieve, so it's a fine line...

And on Miro's comment about "it's not supposed to be hard" with all the features, he's right, but myself, I think I'm trying to achieve something that's not impossible, just very hard to do, which is make everyone (including the drummers) think I'm using a real kit...

Personally, I don't think I'll ever be able to get my stuff past some of the guys here, & that's ok, but I wanna improve....:).
 
And on Miro's comment about "it's not supposed to be hard" with all the features, he's right, but myself, I think I'm trying to achieve something that's not impossible, just very hard to do, which is make everyone (including the drummers) think I'm using a real kit...

Yeah...I wasn't trying to say that anyone having a hard time is "dumb" or anything like that...I just meant that the modern drum apps DO try and make it easier compared to how it was some years back...and also to say that I think some folks may be making it harder on themselves than it needs to be.

IOW...rather mainly focusing on the grid-based programming and excessive processing to change the sounds ....focus on feel of the grooves and think about how a drummer would play them...and that will get you most of the way there, and then just polish it off in the mix AFA EQ/processing to get them to gel with the other tracks.

At least that's how I like to approach it....YMMV...
 
I'm in one of those great positions. I have a real set of Pearls. Sound great. Know how to use them somewhat. But I don't have room in my "studio" to set up the kit, so it stays at the church where I use them. I haven't got enough mikes for that yet, anyway. Maybe someday.
I never use loops on my own songs. Well, not that I didn't write...
Anyway, the point is, I've got drum triggers (Alesis), pads (Akai) and keyboards (Yamaha and Kawai) through midi (all this equipment is part of why I can't fit my drums in...) All of them can be made to sound decent on kick snare and toms with SSD, but you just can't, CAN'T get the sound from SSD that I get from real cymbals. I've got Paiste, Zildian, Wuhan and Sabian cymbals and the cheapest, junk Paiste splash I have sounds better than the best cymbal sample I can get out of SSD. My $30 Wuhan China sounds better than any of the china samples. It's just frustrating. I've turned off all the compressors from SSD. I've tried all sorts of mixing things in the software, and I just can't get good cymbal sounds. Maybe I need a "cheap" drum samples expansion pack to get the kind of tones I'm looking for. IDK.
 
The "Extra-Limbed" Drummer: Don't inadvertently program drumset parts which could only be played by an octopus; just two arms & two legs...This may seem obvious, but it's not hard to make this mistake once one starts adding fills & crashes.

But don't forget that some bands have a bongo player. And some Latin bands might have another drummer on toms, and maybe one or two other percussionists.
 
Yeah...I wasn't trying to say that anyone having a hard time is "dumb" or anything like that...I just meant that the modern drum apps DO try and make it easier compared to how it was some years back...and also to say that I think some folks may be making it harder on themselves than it needs to be.
I know you weren't taking a jab at me dude, it's all good...I'm not really having a hard time either, I'm just trying to make my drums sound as real as I can...it's all good man!!!:D

All of them can be made to sound decent on kick snare and toms with SSD, but you just can't, CAN'T get the sound from SSD that I get from real cymbals.
Not only the cymbals, but the hi-hats too man, they're a dead giveaway a lot of the time...But like I keep sayin', I might be chasin' something that I can't catch...

If I had the space, gear, & could play drums, I'd went with a real kit long ago, but it's just not gonna happen...at least for a while....
 
On the subject of "real" sounding drums...

So I'm channel surfing just now and there's the MJ "This Is It" documentary showing the rehearsals he was doing for the tour right before he died....and the song they were rehearsing when I tuned in was " Billie Jean".

Now I was never a big MJ fan...but one can't deny that he had a HUGE following and he was talented....weird, but talented.
Anyway...I figure I would watch it just until that song ended, and what immediately catches my ear is the sound of the Snare drum.
Man...it sounds like someone hitting a large paper bag with a rolled up newspaper.
There is no bottom-end, no "crack"...just that papery thwack.

Point being...if I was flipping through drum samples and came upon that kind of Snare sample, I wouldn't even give it a second thought because it just wouldn't sound "real" to me...yet there he was, a *real" drummer, playing a *real" drum kit on stage.
I can't say what was done to the drums with processing and what have you....but it just wouldn't be the kind of Snare that I would consider a "real" Snare sound that I would want to use....yet for that song, it just seemed to be the right choice and it was a "real" drum.
If you want to check it out...it's the last rehearsal song in the movie, about 5 minutes before the end.

So I think people sometimes make too much about "real" drums when talking about drum sample, as though there are only certain drum sounds that would qualify as real, when in fact there's all kinds, they just have to fit the song.
Keep in mind that every drum sample came from a real drum being played by a real drummer. ;)
 
On the subject of "real" sounding drums...

So I'm channel surfing just now and there's the MJ "This Is It" documentary showing the rehearsals he was doing for the tour right before he died....and the song they were rehearsing when I tuned in was " Billie Jean".

Now I was never a big MJ fan...but one can't deny that he had a HUGE following and he was talented....weird, but talented.
Anyway...I figure I would watch it just until that song ended, and what immediately catches my ear is the sound of the Snare drum.
Man...it sounds like someone hitting a large paper bag with a rolled up newspaper.
There is no bottom-end, no "crack"...just that papery thwack.

Point being...if I was flipping through drum samples and came upon that kind of Snare sample, I wouldn't even give it a second thought because it just wouldn't sound "real" to me...yet there he was, a *real" drummer, playing a *real" drum kit on stage.
I can't say what was done to the drums with processing and what have you....but it just wouldn't be the kind of Snare that I would consider a "real" Snare sound that I would want to use....yet for that song, it just seemed to be the right choice and it was a "real" drum.
If you want to check it out...it's the last rehearsal song in the movie, about 5 minutes before the end.

So I think people sometimes make too much about "real" drums when talking about drum sample, as though there are only certain drum sounds that would qualify as real, when in fact there's all kinds, they just have to fit the song.
Keep in mind that every drum sample came from a real drum being played by a real drummer. ;)

The majority of those awful 80s pop songs had a ridiculous sounding snare...I won't even call them drums. I'll call them snare sound place holders. You could use a sample of a dog barking if you want to. I don't care. But if you want your fake drums to actually sound like drums, use samples that sound like drums. Not some shit from the Phil Collins expansion pack.
 
What's funny here, is that one of the few songs I've ever gotten compliments on my drum sounds for was from Battles where I took a carbine shot and hacked the tail off. People like that snare sound the best. AND IT'S NOT A REAL SNARE...:(
Maybe the average persons' ears are so out of whack with reality that it doesn't matter. Use a cardboard box for the bass and smack the table with a newspaper for the snare and people will be driven to it because it's "different"...
 
The majority of those awful 80s pop songs had a ridiculous sounding snare...I won't even call them drums. I'll call them snare sound place holders. You could use a sample of a dog barking if you want to. I don't care. But if you want your fake drums to actually sound like drums, use samples that sound like drums. Not some shit from the Phil Collins expansion pack.

I hear what you're saying....I was just making the point that it's not always clear/absolute what "real" means AFA the actual sound.
I think it's more about what is "real" relative the music it's going with.

If you're doing Country, then your drums or whatever would probably have a different "real" VS someone doing Metal or R&B...etc.
There's not just one set of "real" sounding drums that would apply to everything...and listening to that MJ demonstrates it....and even if you forget that old stuff from the '80s, and you take an Indie song compared to a Metal song compared to Pop songs....each style has a different definition of "real".
That's all I was saying....
 
You're just playing devil's advocate now. It's very clear what "real" drums means. It's clear to me anyway because I spend a lot of time around real drums. Real drums don't always sound the same, but they do always sound like drums! Normal drum sounds span the entire spectrum from light jazz to the heaviest of shit metal. They're still drums. Forcing a real drum to not sound like a drum anymore circumvents the point of this thread. Nothing matters if you're not trying to use "normal" drum sounds. Just use whatever. Slap a shoe against your forehead and record it. Who cares?
 
No...I'm not playing devil's advocate....I'm just saying that people already ARE using real drum sounds when they use most any modern drum sample app, yet people keep talking about them NOT being "real" drums...???
I mean if someone records a real drum in a real studio, and turns it into a sample, and then I use it...it's not any less real than me setting up a kit and recording the drums myslef. Both are equally real....they just might sound different, and I would bet that most of the sampled stuff sounds better than what a lot people can pull off in their home studios. :)

I just keep seeing all this "fake drums" being tossed out when talk of drum samples comes up...but there's nothing fake about the drum samples, they are recorded real drums. I think what makes them become less "real sounding" is that people screw things up with their groove programming or by over-processing those samples until they don't sound so real.

The only point with the MJ reference was to say that there are also different perspectives on what makes a good drum sound depending on the style of music, and it's not the same one kind of drum sound across all styles...IOW what is a good sound to me may not be to someone else...etc...but I think you agree with that.
 
No...I'm not playing devil's advocate....I'm just saying that people already ARE using real drum sounds when they use most any modern drum sample app, yet people keep talking about them NOT being "real" drums...???
I mean if someone records a real drum in a real studio, and turns it into a sample, and then I use it...it's not any less real than me setting up a kit and recording the drums myslef. Both are equally real....they just might sound different, and I would bet that most of the sampled stuff sounds better than what a lot people can pull off in their home studios. :)

I just keep seeing all this "fake drums" being tossed out when talk of drum samples comes up...but there's nothing fake about the drum samples, they are recorded real drums. I think what makes them become less "real sounding" is that people screw things up with their groove programming or by over-processing those samples until they don't sound so real.

The only point with the MJ reference was to say that there are also different perspectives on what makes a good drum sound depending on the style of music, and it's not the same one kind of drum sound across all styles...IOW what is a good sound to me may not be to someone else...etc...but I think you agree with that.

I don't agree with anything you're saying at this point. You're blending and twisting terms around now. Good, bad, real, fake, you've side-stepped and redirected the definition of "real" and "fake", and somehow now good and bad are thrown in there too. Good/bad is totally independent of real or fake. Generally, when people talk about "fake drums" it usually means fake as in not actually played as a performance by a real human at a real kit in a real room. The whole thing is assembled artificially. You can use real drum samples, but that doesn't make the performance real. It still needs a lot of tweaking to sound "real". "Fake" does have a negative connotation to it, but it basically means it's not an authentic drum track in the traditional sense. "Real" doesn't only apply to the samples themselves. Real means a real human sat at a real kit and performed this drum track specifically for this song all at one time. That's "real drums". You know this already. Real or fake can sound good or bad. None of it is mutually exclusive.

You've talked your way into another discussion, or maybe these are your true colors on the subject. Either way is fine, but you're getting farther and farther off base. The bottom line is that if "real" samples are so magnificent, it wouldn't take 10 hours to doctor up a 3 minute drum track. There is an absolute huge difference between recording real drums yourself, and dropping "real" hits into place beat by beat, or worse, with loops. Sure, some samples may sound better than some guy's shitty kit in his shitty basement. No doubt. But to make them sound "real", like a real human played your real samples as a cohesive piece of drum magnificence, you still gotta tweak a bunch of shit around.

I had a guy tell me one time that he "played" his drum tracks because he wrote them in the MIDI editor. What's the difference, right? A drum track is a drum track! He was adamant that drawing your drum tracks and actually playing them are the same thing. Naturally, the real drummer in me wanted to bash his fucking face in with a 2B for being so goddamn stupid, not that he would know what a 2B is, but this is where drum programming has gotten us. People think they're "playing drums" with a mouse and people think they're "recording drums" with samples. It just aint so. It aint the same, just like amp sims aren't the same as miking cabs.
 
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The bottom line is that if "real" samples are so magnificent, it wouldn't take 10 hours to doctor up a 3 minute drum track. There is an absolute huge difference between recording real drums yourself, and dropping "real" hits into place beat by beat, or worse, with loops. Sure, some samples may sound better than some guy's shitty kit in his shitty basement. No doubt. But to make them sound "real", like a real human played your real samples as a cohesive piece of drum magnificence, you still gotta tweak a bunch of shit around.


Greg... I am truly not trying to debate some opposing point or changing any words or what have you in any effort to just debate some devil's advocate position. I don't disagree with what you say above.

I was mostly talking about the *sound* of recorded samples being as "real" as the sound of someone recording a drum in their studio. There is NO difference there. The samples come from real drums being recorded in both cases...right?

I think what you are focusing on as "real" VS "fake/non-real" drums has more to do with the good playing of a kit in the studio VS shitty programming/processing of samples...and I totally agree.
It's the shitty programming that makes a drum track sound non-real....not so much the quality of the basic samples.
That's all I was getting at.

Earlier, all I tried to suggest was that there are different ways of looking at what is "real" for a given song...AFA the sound of the drums. Everyone has different tastes....and I think we agree on that too....but shiity programming/processing and shitty playing will always sound *fake/non-real*.
 
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