What about THESE as a poor man's, temporary NS-10 replacement?

[RecordingMaster]

Hi there,

Eventually, I plan on getting some NS-10's or their active brother, the HS series. In the meantime, Here's what I am thinking of having for a "C" speaker set...

I just ordered a Mackie Big Knob and I'm pretty pumped about it. Anyways, there is a way to connect RCA to this thing as one of the sound sources. Will elaborate in a moment.

Here's my current monitoring setup:
1) M-AudioBX5a deluxe monitors (mains), which I plan to upgrade to 8's once I'm in a bigger room
2) Logitech (yes I kow) regular PC speakers with a sub attached to test how it'll sound with a (cheap) sub and on the average Joe's computer speakers
3) AKG Studio Headphones
4) Cheap little Magnavox mono clock radio with aux-in jack to monitor mixes in mono and to see how the mix translates on a low cost, small little speaker with no bass

Here's what I am thinking of adding as a poor man's, temporary NS-10 replacement...
I have a Marantz "Stereophonic" Receiver from the 70's with AM/FM, all the standard eq controls, hi-cut, low-cut, "Loudness" button, 2 phono jacks and 2 aux jacks. It's a great, heavy duty, classic power amp and still works/sounds great. It's about 17" wide so it'll fit in the rack setup nicely if I put it atop of a rack tray/shelf. I was thinking of connecting these speakers I have from 1978...Realistic Minimus 7 (Silver) bookshelf speakers. Check out a review here. I have the earliest production model made in Japan. Minimus 7. Another review here. Since these are know to be "pretty good", "accurate", strong in the mids and highs, bass light, etc. Also, they were originally distributed by Radio Shack. Yes I know. But apparently Radio Shack stuff from those years, like Realistic brand, actually had SOME credibility. They are solid little speakers - you can tell that they put some care into the build quality. Since they are "consumer" mid quality speakers, and due to the things I just mentioned, they seem to possess similar qualities as the NS-10. I know they are NOT NS-10's, but wouldn't the main point be that they are meant for monitoring on bad sounding consumer speakers with not much bass and strong mids to bring out all the problems in your mix?

I wonder if hooking these into my monitoring setup as a "C" speaker set would even be worth the hassle of trying. The Marantz sort of skews my question even more. But I figure I'd keep the eq dials flat and/or adjust them to suit the room.

What do you think?

 

[stepXinXtheXmix]

my only suggestion on the MAudio's bx8s....make sure you get the newer generation (D2's).... the first models are absolutely unreliable as far as translating goes, i know cause the bx8s are my mains currently...car tests suck after a while.

 

[dervish riff]

I had a pair of the Minimus 7s for a while, they weren't bad for what they were, as long as you didn't try to play them too loud. Thought about doing some of the mods, but found a pair of Paradigm Micro Monitors cheap and they seem to work much better in my room.

 

[RecordingMaster]

my only suggestion on the MAudio's bx8s....make sure you get the newer generation (D2's).... the first models are absolutely unreliable as far as translating goes, i know cause the bx8s are my mains currently...car tests suck after a while.

Ah, good to know... I would absolutely get whatever the newest version is for whatever speaker I buy for mains. I was looking into the KRK Rokit 8's, although I know there are probably a bunch of people saying those are junk as well. End of the day, it is HOME recording. Not all of us can afford $2000 + for a single set of monitors. I figure KRK is best in it's price range judging by reviews. Not a clue until i hear.

Anyways....

 

[RecordingMaster]

I had a pair of the Minimus 7s for a while, they weren't bad for what they were, as long as you didn't try to play them too loud. Thought about doing some of the mods, but found a pair of Paradigm Micro Monitors cheap and they seem to work much better in my room.

Yeah, I agree with the volume. Really need to NOT crank the "bass" on my Marantz or they fart out in the low end, even with older records. I don't see the merit in doing mods to make them "sound better", because the whole point I am using them is to hear the imperfections on a speaker that doesn't necessarily sound good, same like with the NS-10. I think those mods are more meant or audiophiles (not studio engineers), looking to get these best of out them. I'm sure, we could mod the NS-10's to sound better too, but then their main purpose would be eliminated.

 

[MetroCenter]

I have Mackie MR5's and I love 'em. Worth considering if you're looking at KRKs (which are in the same general price range).

 

[RecordingMaster]

FOLLOW UP!...

Well, well, well. I have hooked up the Minimums 7's (took off grills for less coloration) with my Marantz 2270 Receiver (EQ set flat) and rigged em up with the Mackie Big Knob. And while I've never used NS-10's in my setup, I can certainly confirm these do exactly as the described benefits that NS-10's have! With eq set flat, they are very prominent in the mid-range, very little bass, and rounded off highs. I checked some commercial mixes on these, from Foo Fighters to Clutch to even Lady Gaga! A/B'ing between those and my main monitors I can see the whole "if the mixes sound good on these, they'll sound good anywhere" school of thought for sure. Because those mixes DID sound good. Well not "good" like they would on a hifi...but clear, accurate and all the levels of each element in the mix were very audible. Nothing muddy in the mids.

When i opened up one of my own mixes I am working on for an acoustic rock band with drums, I put them to work. As others have mentioned, these are also not only useful for quickly finding the muddy, boxy stuff in a track or a whole mix, in order to attenuate it, but also to quickly even out all the basic volume levels in a track before you get down to the nitty gritty. It really can bring out things that will end up sounding too loud in the mix, later on other sources, that your mains may not be showing you. Like snare drums. I used them on an acoustic guitar part I thought was ready to be left alone. They accentuated a nasally sound in the high mids, that i had already attenuated when mixing on my mains, but this brought it out more. I figured: "If I can hear it on these M7's, I'll be able to hear it elsewhere at times". So it literally just took 1-2 more dB's of attenuation at that frequency and A/B'ing back and forth between mains and the M7's, I CAN't really hear the difference on the mains, which is OK, but I CAN hear the difference on the M7's. Which is desirable. In other words, it wasn't an obvious sonic adjustment to the overall sound, but when put under the microscope on the M7's (they are supposed to bring out the bad stuff more, right?), it now sounds acceptable. And the whole mix when A/B'ed I find is now acceptable on the M7's - with the same audible yucky stuff I'm hearing on the commercial mixes.

VERY cool! I can definitely say that I have brought my monitoring setup to the next level by adding these lil' M7 gems and also adding the Big Knob. No more need for separately ran talk back mics and cables, etc, and way faster monitor a/b/c'ing, all with one Knob. I can tell I am going to get a LOT of use of the M7's.

If you don't have NS-10's, can't find them, can't afford them, don't buy into the hype, or simply don't want them for any other reason, I strongly suggest you seek out an older pair (circa 70's-early 80's) that were originally made in Japan of the Realistic Minimus 7's. The Japanese models are apparently the most sought after model, which luckily I had sitting in my basement just collecting dust. I'm glad I appeased my curiosity!

I didn't bother to do any mods, because why make them sound "better"? In my mind, I'd just be defeating purpose. They're not supposed to sound "good"!

Thanks for reading.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I've been playing around with Minimus 7 speakers since the 80s when I put a pair in my car. They're not exactly accurate but if you place them against a wall (you can use the keyhole to hang them) it brings the bass out a bit.

 

[RecordingMaster]

I've been playing around with Minimus 7 speakers since the 80s when I put a pair in my car. They're not exactly accurate but if you place them against a wall (you can use the keyhole to hang them) it brings the bass out a bit.

In your car? That's awesome, haha! Where'd you hang em?

Yeah, I had them hanging on my walls in my tracking room just to listen to reference material during band practices or for listening to vinyl records. They (along with the Marantz) were passed on to me from my Dad. I do recall them being bassier on the walls, as that's sort of what they're intended for in order to operate at their fullest potential...apparently. However, in the control room, for monitoring, I don't care to have much bass on these. Low to high mids really. Really helps me focus on the root problem mids certain tracks can cause in a mix. I hear "bad" things on here more than my monitors. Even though these may be amplifying them more than a flat monitor or a hifi speaker, it's nice to hear it amplified, so I can adjust it faster, so those issues are NEVER present when listening on anything else after completion. Or so I'd hope! haha

Of course, NS-10's would be optimal...but these will do...I think!

 

[bouldersoundguy]

In your car? That's awesome, haha! Where'd you hang em?

In my car they just sat on the rear sill. It's a good thing I didn't ever run into a car or other obstacle or they would have launched themselves into the back of the driver's and passenger's heads. They are heavy little things. The later Optimus 7s don't even compare. I still have the pair of the early silver ones that I've had since the 80s, plus a pair of later black ones. They also made them in white.

 

[Bristol Posse]

Just curious, Why the fascination with NS-10s

Back in the day a huge swathe of studios had them and so if you learned how NS-10s sounded you could work in a lot of places without having to spend hours getting used to the monitoring from scratch every time.
They were not and are not particularly great speakers by any means. Just learn what you have and how they effect the mix, unless you are planning on mixing in a lot of places that have the new versions of NS-10s installed

There is nothing magic about the HS or NS speakers, pros just wanted consistency in the monitors so they could mix effectively in a lot of places, In fact a lot of people used to say that NS10s were awful, but they were universally awful so you always knew what you were going to get and what you would have to compensate for because of them

 

[RecordingMaster]

I have the silver ones too! Japan.

Bristol,
I wouldn't say I'm personally fascinated by NS-10's (seeing as I've never used 'em). That's an interesting story though...all studios had 'em so there would be consistency. Never really thought of that.

As for the "bad sounding" nature of these or any sub-par speaker, I guess the cool thing about them is that if your mix sounds good on them (at least the NS-10's) it SHOULD sound pretty good and balanced, and translate well on any speaker. That's sort of what I'm shooting for with these anyhow. I know you get what you pay for, and that these ARE NOT NS-10's, and that they don't have the same specs, frequency response or accuracy as the NS-10's, but they've been working along the same lines as what the NS-10's do (very mid-range forward), so far, for me, for the short period of time that I've been using 'em.

So I guess if they work for me (we'll see once I finish a mix, how many less times I go back to the DAW after listening in other places), compared to when I was using only my mains and some headphones. It's a B set. Can't hurt. More monitoring the better. I also hooked up a tiny little mono clock radio speaker. It's cool to check on there to mostly see how things come across like the kick drum, bass guitar, and reverbs, backing vocals, etc. Since I don't have a dedicated sub of of yet, I also wired up a set of desktop Logitech speakers that have a sub woofer with a separate adjustment knob. That helps me see if I am mixing enough sub bass into things like kick and bass guitar, that I can't hear as intensely on my mains. Plus headphones, gives me 5 sources before leaving the control room.

 

[Bristol Posse]

I guess the cool thing about them is that if your mix sounds good on them (at least the NS-10's) it SHOULD sound pretty good and balanced, and translate well on any speaker.

Not really
the most important thing is to get your room treated and learn whatever monitors you have and how they effect your mixing .For example, if your room has a null at 120hz no matter what speakers you have you will never hear that frequency accurately and so not mix it properly.
If your speakers hype the midrange you will probably find that all of your mixes are light in that region until you figure out how to compensate.
Unless you have a good (well treated fairly neutral) mixing space, what speakers you use to mix is somewhat moot. If your room is nulling some frequencies and hyping others you will always be fighting mix transitional issues.

 

[RecordingMaster]

Not really
the most important thing is to get your room treated and learn whatever monitors you have and how they effect your mixing .For example, if your room has a null at 120hz no matter what speakers you have you will never hear that frequency accurately and so not mix it properly.
If your speakers hype the midrange you will probably find that all of your mixes are light in that region until you figure out how to compensate.
Unless you have a good (well treated fairly neutral) mixing space, what speakers you use to mix is somewhat moot. If your room is nulling some frequencies and hyping others you will always be fighting mix transitional issues.

Agreed. I am aware of said issues. But regardless, it's nice to have different speakers to A/B for monitoring. And I am, at the current time, feeling the M7's are, for me, doing a decent job at amplifying some stuff (only on certain tracks), that I may want to attenuate a little, that I'm not hearing as blatantly on my mains. Plus the other benefits I've noted. This is all room-aside. Let's pretend I'm in the best room known to man for a minute. I'm talking speakers, not rooms. But I understand your argument. You're well educated and have a logical way of looking at things.

Thanks for the input.

 

[chronicle]

Better late than never. I'm only replying to this thread because of the "use what you got" nature of the theme is what I'm all about. Always have...always will. As I think most HR enthusiasts are too.

As for the "bad sounding" nature of these or any sub-par speaker, I guess the cool thing about them is that if your mix sounds good on them (at least the NS-10's) it SHOULD sound pretty good and balanced, and translate well on any speaker.

Speaking purely from an HR and non pro engineer point of view... TRANSLATION..is the bottom line. Unfortunately, to ME, it's one of those "in the eye of the beholder" things too. What I think "translates" may mean a totally different thing to someone else's ears. But that's a whole nuther discussion.

As to this thread....I love my Minimus 7s though. I have 3 different sets of them One pair in my CR, another in my "translation" first test area...(ie...my shop.) and another pair in my Van. Just found a set at Goodwill, in primo condition for a whopping $5. I love thrift stores.

And here's another thing. The ole ya gotta use whatcha got thing. Like this.

I have a Marantz "Stereophonic" Receiver from the 70's with AM/FM, all the standard eq controls, hi-cut, low-cut, "Loudness" button, 2 phono jacks and 2 aux jacks. It's a great, heavy duty, classic power amp and still works/sounds great

Man, I read that. My "poor man's" solution for a studio amp is a Sansui 8080DB! I wouldn't trade that receiver for anything...well..maybe. But the thing this receiver has that most don't is two sets of "Pre Outs", with one set(L/R) connected to the "MAIN IN" via little metal "U" pins.
For my monitoring set up, I have a few custom built "line select" switch boxes, whereby I can select whatever I want to patch into that MAIN IN on the reciever. This way it bypasses the internal pre. PURE amp. And man does it have power. I think 200w but I'm not sure. Just had a tech go through it. The other "Pre out's go to a EQ, which I can patch in to the Main in with a linelevel 4in1out select matrix switch box. (I have other ones too...see below.)

Actually though, I have three different amps, two of which are consumer Rackmount amps(no reciever). All of them have a speaker select switch too, which I have connected to a Speaker/Amp matrix box, so I can select different combos. I love having options. Like my headphone system. I have two headphone modules..one at each end of my console. Each module has a 4in/1 out powered switching matrix for line level inputs, and a linelevel/speaker level switch as well, with two headphone outputs each of which is inline with a Stereo Pad for use at speaker level inputs. Hahahaha...did I mention....er..never mind.

Thing is though, speaking of "poor mans" solutions. In my CR, at one point in time, I wanted to build soffits. Unfortunately, I didn't have a real set of soffit mountable studio monitors. But what I did have were the Sansui speakers that came with the Reciever. One 12" woofer, one 4" mid and a tweeter.

Well, I decided to use these temporarily. However, the only thing I ever want to mod in the future, is the baffle, so when the time comes I can afford it..I'll mount some Scanspeak drivers on a new baffle and install a new crossover. But I'm a long term DIY'er, so I did one better.

I had a bunch of old office partition panels made of 1 1/4" thick formica clad MDF. Perfect for cladding these speaker boxes. Now they are 2" thick cabinet sides and back, and I added same for internal braces. Did I mention heavy? 105lbs each.

When I clad these, I intentionally set back the front edge of the cladding, 1", as my decoupling design for the monitors as well as the soffit dress face required it. Here is what I mean.


Well, this post is already too long, so I won't bore you with any more details. Suffice to say...I only wanted to give a "thumbs up" to Recordingmaster for using what he has. I do to. And as far as I'm concerned...it WORKS.

btw, I never claimed to be an expert on Speaker building. All I know is it sounds great even with the Sansui drivers. Afterall...soffits are truly wonderful with ANY speaker. However, I forgot to mention though. From my understanding..by design, most consumer speakers have a built in 6db boost in the LF's..of which I plan on building "barefoots"(speaker designer) little circuit that removes it. Later on that though.

 

[RecordingMaster]

Amen chronicle! Very cool stuff/setup you've got going on! That's a really cool soffit design. Nice job!

Side note: Never heard of Sansui but it looks along the same lines as other better quality-built receivers of the time. Although I WAS born in 1985, so that doesn't say much!

 

[Lt. Bob]

NS 10's aren't really worth chasing down .... they were just crap speakers so studios could get an idea of what their mixes would sound like on the crap that consumers tended to have. Basically any limited range cheap consumer speaker will do the same job just as well.
You have to 'learn' the NS 10s or you'll never gte a mix that translates out of them so you can just as easily 'learn' another not too good speaker.
Personally I wouldn't go 5 feet out of my way to get a pair of NS 10's over say, the Realistic speakers you mentioned. I had a pair and they sucked in general and I can accomplish the same thing with several other cheapos I have set up now.

 

[RecordingMaster]

NS 10's aren't really worth chasing down .... they were just crap speakers so studios could get an idea of what their mixes would sound like on the crap that consumers tended to have. Basically any limited range cheap consumer speaker will do the same job just as well.
You have to 'learn' the NS 10s or you'll never gte a mix that translates out of them so you can just as easily 'learn' another not too good speaker.
Personally I wouldn't go 5 feet out of my way to get a pair of NS 10's over say, the Realistic speakers you mentioned. I had a pair and they sucked in general and I can accomplish the same thing with several other cheapos I have set up now.

Cool, makes sense. Thanks for sharing!