Speaker compatibility

Just to be clear Bob. I am only advocating 2x speaker rating over nominal amp power for guitar speakers and then really only for VALVE op stages of 50W or more. The "classic" AC30 EL84 stage will never deliver more than about 40W no matter what you do (but, N.B. the very early AC30s used Goodmans 15W 12s and they DID burn out. )

The guitar amplifier WILL be overdriven and valves tend to "beat" thermal compression that would otherwise protect VCs driven from transistors.

Many, many years ago we had a pair of KEF Chorals and the tweeters would pop if the tape was dropped early onto the heads in fast wind mode (Quad 303 drive IIRC) a couple of fuses save that situation. That is a case of perfectly match speaker power and PA but a non-standard signal that you would never encounter in a domestic setup.

In an ideal world, speakers are selected to produce a wanted SPL at X mtrs with some headroom determined by the clients pocket! It then becomes a simple matter to decide upon suitable amplifier power. But of course! With itinerate musos "ideal" never happens.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Just to be clear Bob. I am only advocating 2x speaker rating over nominal amp power for guitar speakers and then really only for VALVE op stages of 50W or more. The "classic" AC30 EL84 stage will never deliver more than about 40W no matter what you do (but, N.B. the very early AC30s used Goodmans 15W 12s and they DID burn out. )

The guitar amplifier WILL be overdriven and valves tend to "beat" thermal compression that would otherwise protect VCs driven from transistors.

Many, many years ago we had a pair of KEF Chorals and the tweeters would pop if the tape was dropped early onto the heads in fast wind mode (Quad 303 drive IIRC) a couple of fuses save that situation. That is a case of perfectly match speaker power and PA but a non-standard signal that you would never encounter in a domestic setup.

In an ideal world, speakers are selected to produce a wanted SPL at X mtrs with some headroom determined by the clients pocket! It then becomes a simple matter to decide upon suitable amplifier power. But of course! With itinerate musos "ideal" never happens.

Dave.
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I leave the guitar amp to the guitarist (except for frequently yelling "turn it down" with some of them!

PA amps and speakers are a different kettle of fish from domestic stuff (where I'd agree about being more careful with matching the specs). My "double the power" advice is for PA work only with gear designed to be used that way.

I now only have a small PA anyway and have got around this issue with powered speakers. However, I still work the same way with those--I set up the gain structure on the mixer as I want it then turn up the input attenuators on the speakers to the level I need. For the size of place where I typically use my gear (there are only two or three venues where I tend to work and most of it is musical theatre) this means the knob about half way up for a plenty loud signal and lots of room before clipping.
 
Off topic, but the keyword appeared and I have a triggered responce : ) I've been want to try mixing on KEF Chorals II. Would that be any fun ? Or, the closely sized C-models from that period
 
I've mixed on a variety of KEF speakers and they've all be good and accurate. I've never mixed on the Chorals but suspect they'd be pretty good. Indeed, I count selling my 104ab models as one of my many lifetime mistakes.
 
Bobbsy said:
I've mixed on a variety of KEF speakers and they've all be good and accurate. I've never mixed on the Chorals but suspect they'd be pretty good. Indeed, I count selling my 104ab models as one of my many lifetime mistakes.
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The KEF was used in a small office room and monitored speech from another room used for VOs. Everything was mono! The voice was used along with computer controlled 35mm slide presentations. Anyone remember those? !

Dave.
 
Thanks, so much. They were on my list when I bought my used Tannoy and I'm kinda' out of room, so I put them on the backburner. I'll try to find room for a pair.
 
If I can refine that question- which speakers would be best for me to use with that mixer for live performance and also for home studio monitors ? Powered speakers ?
 
"If I can refine that question- which speakers would be best for me to use with that mixer for live performance and also for home studio monitors ? Powered speakers ? "

There seems to be some dislike of powered mixers (implying passive speakers) in HR circles? Not sure why except obviously for a given sum spent the power section takes a large proportion of the build cost and thus fewer (worse?) facilities pre power amps. If a given P mixer has the inouts, routing and facilities you want at a given price I can see the attraction of the "one box " solution. Also, passive speakers are easier to rig as you don't need a power feed.

Countering that is the "eggs in one basket" reliability issue. Then, a mixer + PA + speakers is very flexible even quite pokey power amps are pretty cheap these days and a spare could be bought . I would think along the lines of pretty high powered passives and a couple of amps which can be "bridged". Thus, for a do down the Mucky Duck just take speakers plus one 200W per ch amp but at the Town Hall bridge both amps for 500W or so per side?

As a fairly good rule. Good electronics is cheap but spend as much as you can on transducers!
Dave.
 
Thanks for that, Dave- but I already own the Behringer 6000 powered mixer. I'm wondering if I should buy a pair of powered speakers for it for live work.
I've already got a couple of Fostex 5" for my little studio- and I'm wondering if a couple of powered PA speakers could double as studio monitors.
It's just for roughish demo purposes. The material and execution are the real selling points.

If I don't ask I don't learn, right ?
 
Why would you want ACTIVE speakers if you have a 600W pch (4 Ohms) power amp available?

That said, there are few actual PA speakers that would be accurate enough for critical monitoring, maybe a pair of top line Neumanns?

There plenty of PA speakers of 300W 8R rating that would suit for PA under £500 per pair but you want to avoid horn loaded compression tweeters (and high powered piezo tweeters will drill holes in your eardrums!) . Saw some by Electrovoice that might stand a harkening unto?

Of course, if you just want to make a bit of a row playing back your creations......!

Dave.
 
Thanks. Just asking- the Fostex are fine.
Do you have a link to the Electrovoice pair ?

The band's instrumentation ranges from bamboo flute, through keyboards, violin, skin hand-drums, electro-drum kit, fretless bass, synth guitar and an operatic soprano.
 
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The EVs were on the GAK site. They have a vast range. IIRC they were priced a bit under £400.

Note, you want 8 Ohm Z and a 300W rating. If you go for 4 Ohms 600W there were some JBLs at 4R but probably a bit "shouty" and "disco" for your intended double duty.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
That said, there are few actual PA speakers that would be accurate enough for critical monitoring, maybe a pair of top line Neumanns?
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I'm not sure what you intended to say here. It sounds like you are suggesting that Neumanns make PA speakers.
 
Even if powerful enough, I'm not sure I'd use Neumann monitors in a live sound situation. As I say frequently, monitor speakers are designed to sound ACCURATE, warts and all, so you can judge your mix. PA speakers (or home HiFi for that matter) want to make things sound good. To add an extra requirement for PA, they want to have very efficient output per watt input.

There are various good PA speakers out there but, at a mid range price, I tend to recommend the RCF ART series--exact model depending on the size of venue, type of music (and, since you own the amp as part of your speaker) compatibility with your ampl
 
Bobbsy said:
Even if powerful enough, I'm not sure I'd use Neumann monitors in a live sound situation. As I say frequently, monitor speakers are designed to sound ACCURATE, warts and all, so you can judge your mix. PA speakers (or home HiFi for that matter) want to make things sound good. To add an extra requirement for PA, they want to have very efficient output per watt input.

There are various good PA speakers out there but, at a mid range price, I tend to recommend the RCF ART series

Totally agree Bobbs! The comment was really by form of an illustration that there ARE some very accurate but pretty pokey monitors (I would bet a pair of old 15" Tannoy DCs could liven up a party? )

To go from the ridiculous to some might say the sublime? At my day release college we had a visit from a sitar virtuoso. (don't think it was Ravi) and my tutor brought in his home Quad ELSs as a bit of reinforcement. Sounded good!

Dave.
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ecc83 said:
Why would you want ACTIVE speakers if you have a 600W pch (4 Ohms) power amp available?

That said, there are few actual PA speakers that would be accurate enough for critical monitoring, maybe a pair of top line Neumanns?

There plenty of PA speakers of 300W 8R rating that would suit for PA under £500 per pair but you want to avoid horn loaded compression tweeters (and high powered piezo tweeters will drill holes in your eardrums!) . Saw some by Electrovoice that might stand a harkening unto?

Of course, if you just want to make a bit of a row playing back your creations......!

Dave.
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I confess to confusion. I've been looking around and I can't find any passive pair that appears to be capable of making full use of this PMP6000 mixer.

Output Power
RMS @ 1% THD, both channels driven:
8R per channel: 300W
4R per channel: 600W
RMS @ 1% THD, bridged mode: 8R 1200W
Peak Power, both channels driven:
8R per channel: 400W
4R per channel: 800W
Peak Power, bridged mode: 8R 1600W

I can't spend more than £600 GBP.
 
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