Routing to Console

J

JRCnorth

New member
First things first - I'm running a 24 channel console into a 24 track digital recorder. So I both track and mix using the console and outboard and in my studio i have a live and a control room.

I want to be able to easily plug in to any channel from both the live and control room. So far I have only plugged straight into the desk or repatched through whichever pre/compressor i'm using.

At the moment I have a patch bay with all my outboard patched in so that makes life somewhat easy as I can just send lines out to the desk. However, this new space is leaving me spatially restricted so getting behind the racks and the console is a bit hard.

So, how could I have a permanent set up of 24 channels from the live room coming in which i can assign to outboard or the desk without having to get behind the units and also have a panel of 12 XLR inputs in the control room which can do the same? I'm assuming it's some kind of patch bay, however, i have no idea what as i don't want to make the signal chain too long or complicated.

I own a 24 channel multicore XLR both ends and was assuming this was going to be used as the main go-between the live and control rooms.
 
What I do, and what I suspect is typical, is to leave the snake from the live room connected to the console, then run all the outboard gear and console inserts to a patch bay where I can assign whatever outboard to whatever channel. I haven't had need to go directly from the snake to the outboard, or frequently re-patch XLRs at the console end of the snake.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
What I do, and what I suspect is typical, is to leave the snake from the live room connected to the console, then run all the outboard gear and console inserts to a patch bay where I can assign whatever outboard to whatever channel. I haven't had need to go directly from the snake to the outboard, or frequently re-patch XLRs at the console end of the snake.
Click to expand...

I've never used preamps with the insert channels, i was once told they dont work like this.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
What I do, and what I suspect is typical, is to leave the snake from the live room connected to the console, then run all the outboard gear and console inserts to a patch bay where I can assign whatever outboard to whatever channel. I haven't had need to go directly from the snake to the outboard, or frequently re-patch XLRs at the console end of the snake.
Click to expand...
Also what would i do about plugging in in the control room
 
You can totally plug a pre into the return of the insert. The insert may need a lower level than a normal line input, and make sure any balanced to unbalanced connections were done properly. The main downside would be that if your console has the eq ahead of the insert you would lose that function.

You could also bring all the line inputs on the console out to a patch bay and connect the preamps by that method. Many console line inputs are just padded down and fed to the onboard preamp so you would be going through more circuitry, but you would also have more control.
 
I had a 24 channel snake with 16 channels going to the first 16 channels of the board. The other 8 channels of the snake went to my outboard preamps, which were then plugged into my interface directly. The outputs of those channels of the interface were plugged into the line inputs of channels 17-24 on the mixer, for monitoring purposes.

If you are using a tape machine, you will need to plug the outboard preamps into the line inputs of the last few mixer channels, so you can route the signal to any track on the tape deck you want.

If you have more outboard than you have channels to return the signal to, you will need a patchbay.
 
JRCnorth said:
I'm assuming it's some kind of patch bay....
Click to expand...

Mmm....yeah.

You can do all kinds of cabling "tricks"...but honestly, the patchbay is the best way, considering you already have all you other gear on a patchbay.
I've got ALL of my console I/Os going to bays...ALL my tape machine I/Os...ALL my digital interface I/Os...ALL...........well, you get the picture. :D
You can then normal what you want or just use it straight...whatever...you have options.

There's no real issue with the length of the lines...and it's not any more complicated than what you are already doing. It's actually easier and more organized.
While a console can act as some sort of patchbay, in a limited sense...it's a PITA getting behind it and constantly re-patching things there. Having all your I/Os on dedicated bays gives you any possibility, quickly, easily.
 
So if i had an xlr patchbay to plug the snake into where would i go from there? Would it be ok to use an xlr to jack patch cable to choose to go to either the desk or a pre?

Im just concerned about making a problem in the chain somewhere.
 
I'd just get another snake and keep it hooked to the outboard preamps. Select your pre by where you connect at the other end of the snake.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
I'd just get another snake and keep it hooked to the outboard preamps. Select your pre by where you connect at the other end of the snake.
Click to expand...

I wouldnt want to do that as i prefer my console pres most of the time to the outboard.

I really want to just have the blank canvas where anything can be pluged in to anything without having to get behind the console or the rack units.
 
I use an XLR - preamp only patch bay for my...well, pre inputs.

The pre outputs and all my other gear I/Os got a half-dozen or so TT-Bantam TRS patchbays.

I preferred to keep them separate...but it's not absolutely necessary...though by having the XLR patchbay...I can quickly plug a mic cable into any pre I want.
Sure, you can do it with snakes and all that...but for me, it was also about having a really "clean" studio setup.
I don't have a massive studio space, so every inch is used to its best...and keeping the cable clutter to a minimum, and out of the way, was part of that.
I have literally miles of cables...but when you stand in the studio...you would be hard pressed to see any. It's all going to the patchbays.

If you look at the two console side racks...the left rack houses all my external pres, and at the bottom of it is the XLR patchbay.
On the right side rack, at the top are all my other patchbays.

Studio03.jpg
 
Ok, so I think I have it from that set up (what console do you have?!). however, I am concerned on how much i would connect the XLR patch bay on the left to all the desk ins on the patchbay on the right. I know I can just use line out cables from the preamps to the jack patchbay into the desk. What would i do about the straight XLR into the desk? Would i just plug into the XLR patch then send that to the desk input patchbay? If so, would i just use XLR to jack cables from XLR connections on the desk to the patchbay?

Basically I'm worried about making connections too complicated and affecting the quality of signal from mic to console. Also do i need to worry about plugging a mic directly into a patchbay?

Thanks
 
You're losing me... :D

The XLR patchbay "on the left" is NOT connected in any way (and it doesn't need to be) to the patchbay "on the right".
The XLR patchbay is ONLY for your mics...and it feeds the XLR inputs on the back of the preamps.
The preamp outputs...the line outs...THEY go to the patchbay on the right.

So...your outboard preamps have inputs for the mics...and line outputs. You are simply "splitting" the preamp I/O...inputs go to the XLR patchbay and outputs go to the other patchbay. My console preamps also go to the XLR patchbay.

If it makes it any easier...just imaging the XLR patchbays on the same side as the rest...only difference is they use XLR connectors and are only for the mics.
Heck, you CAN put your preamp inputs in the same bays as the rest....but for patching a mic into the bay, you would have to convert some cables so they are XLR at the mic and TRS at the bay.
I see no point in that. The ONLY thing your mics will ever plug into are the preamps...so, feed the preamp inputs from an XLR patchbay...and the only reason I have it on the left rack, is because that's where my pres are.

You will not affect the quality of the signal from the mic to the console. You have your mic connected to cable...the cable plugs into the XLR patch bay...from the patchbay's XLR connector is cable feeding the console preamp, or whatever preamp.
It's just a piece of balanced wire, soldered to the back of the XLR connector on the bay, and with another XLR male connector going to your preamp input...and that's it's a lot cleaner than connecting a couple of PA type snakes with boxes.

Oh...it's a Trident 24 London...fully refurbished and upgraded.
 
Do you have your pres assigned to a paticular channel on the desk or are you free to assign them to any channel?
 
The patchbays allow you to assign anything to anywhere...that's the point of putting all your I/Os on bays.

My console has Mic and Line inputs. The Mic inputs are fed form the XLR bays and the Line inputs from the others.
The inputs to my standalone pres are also fed from the XLR bays...the pre outputs go to the other bays, and from there I can patch them to anything. Same thing with console outputs. There is no need to pre-assign any output to some given input....it's all done at the bays.

On the bays...you usually set up the top row as your gear outputs, and the bottom row as your inputs. Plus there are ways to "normal"...etc.

You should get some paper and pencil and draw it out...it will make sense. :)
It may seem complicated when you try to sort it out in your head...but once you see it on paper, and once you do it...you will find how much simpler making connections between gear becomes with the patchbays.
 
I know about the patchbay usuals. I think? I completely understand what youre saying now and that was what i was trying to describe in the first place.

So i think i just need 3 12 channel xlr patchbays 24ch for mic inputs to the desk and use the oher bay to send to my pres.

Only question is do i just use the desk inserts to add compression from now on while tracking?
 
I've run my inserts to the patchbays too...and yeah, that's where you would patch in a comp...if you are using the console pres.
If you are using external pres...you can use the patchbay to go pre, comp and then from there to the console line input, if you want to go through the console...or you can go form the comp to the interface...or wherever. It all happens at the patchbays.
 
I can,t believe how simple it is as ive just been way overthinking this in my head. Thanks so much for clearing this up for me.
 
JRCnorth said:
I can,t believe how simple it is as ive just been way overthinking this in my head. Thanks so much for clearing this up for me.
Click to expand...

Glad you are sorted! Couple of points, mention was made of bringing inserts to a patch bay? If these are balanced fine but if of the single jack variety they are unbalanced and mixing balanced and unbalanced sources and destinations in a patch bay can be fraught, hum loops.

Note too that 'inserts' are generally at the mixer's internal level, very often -2dBu. Not a problem just be aware if you normally run a 'unity gain' setup.

You were also concerned about the effect of lots of cable and connectors on audio quality? Don't be. Naturally use quality connectors that fit properly and do not tarnish (a wipe with a rag moistened with WD-40 twice a year is no bad thing!) and if YOU are soldering stuff do a bang up job of it but 'cable is cable. Yes, some VERY cheap stuff will have poorer RF screening but unless you live in a primary transmitter field, not likely an issue. In fact the BEST balanced cable for 'static' setups is foil screened, light weight cable of about 4mm OD. Takes up less room and the foil gives 100% RF screening. Earth is via a bare drain wire..MUCH easier to strip and solder than a braid and no danger of 'whiskers'.

So long as the gear has adequately low output impedances, well under 1k Ohm, you should have no problems.

Dave.
 
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