Recommendations for treating my room

Laimon

New member
Hey guys,

I recently moved to a new apartment where I can finally make some sort of studio/music room all for myself - YAY!
However, I would like to acoustically treat it as like most house rooms does not sound great at all; in fact, I must say that both listening to music, mixing and playing guitar are quite affected, there's some kind of high-end reverberation going on, and at the same time a certain muddiness in lows and mids.
So I wanted to ask the help of more experienced people :)
I never investigated the topic much, but from what I have seen I am already breaking some golden rules:
- one should avoid simple ratio between the different dimensions of the room; mine is 2.80 by 5.60 meters, so I guess a ratio of 1 to 2 is as bad as it goes (ceiling is 2.40 m, but that seem sufficiently independent of the other measures; oh, and walls are solid concrete, if it matters)
- the speakers should face the longer side of the wall, but in my case that would mean have the desk in front of the window and cutting out all of the light; so I have to have them face the shorter side of the wall
I made a little sketch to show how the room will be roughly organized. I should be able to put bass traps on each corner, but I am not sure if I can put panel in the back if hanging my guitars too (that's not been done yet, so I still can do that accordingly).
Every recommendation will help :) (well, almost - changing house again, for instance, is not really applicable :P )
I imagine the treatment would also help for guitar playing, right? Containing some boominess at least?
Thanks a lot for any help!
Cheers,

Simone
 

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You're right, the desk should be set up on the wall with the window - no way you can just cover that over?
Corner bass traps, and trapping on the walls are going to be needed for sure, if all the walls are concrete. Rockwool, not foam.
 
I would get a rack/floor stand for the guitars and plan to treat that wall, unless you can put the treatment behind the guitars. Center the desk, treat the initial reflection points and build some "clouds" while you're at it for over the desk at a minimum. What is the floor?

I'm not sure I'd give up on putting the desk on the short wall. Lots of people have to deal with windows. You can put an extra layer of plexiglas or similar in to keep out sound while still allowing light, or get heavy "blocking" drapes (what I did), giving up the light for recording/mixing at least, while still being able to open them if you want natural light in the room.

I recommend building panels yourself with (Roxul) Rockboard 60 (rigid mineral wool kind of product) as it's dense enough to be pretty useful without having to go to extreme thicknesses, if you can source it. Plus it's more rigid so a little less baling/chicken wire required to keep it neat over the years, especially if building clouds. I had to use Roxul's Safe'n'Sound, which is a dense batting 3.5" thick. Since you used metric, if you're in Canada you might find it, but elsewhere you'll have to look for equivalent material. Lots of instructions online but it depends on the material before you get before you start buying frame material.

Good luck.
 
Hey guys, thanks for chiming in!
To answer your questions:

- I can treat the wall before hanging the guitars, so that's not an issue
- I could technically move the desk on the short wall with the windows, but honestly I am very, very reluctant to do so. The reason is that I tried already and - besides not hearing a significant improvement, but maybe that's harder to tell before treatment - it just takes out all the light (in an already not-so-bright country such as Switzerland). I don't want it to sound "superficial" (from an audiophile perspective it might :P ), but I will be spending a lot of time in the room so I would want it to feel cozy as well.
- Floor is parquet, solid wood

and a few more question from my side:

- if I keep the desk on the long wall, the initial reflection points on the side will be on the wall on the left (which is ok) but on the window on the right (not ok). Could heavy drapes like we discussed help?
- could you recommend any online modes calculator that doesn't just calculate the modes of your room but also takes into account your listening position and recommends type and positioning of treating panels/bass traps?
- btw, I often see bass traps that are - say - 60 cm tall, I guess I would have to stack them to cover the room corner up to the ceiling, right? (in my case, for instance, 4 of them for each corner for a total of 16)

Thanks again a lot!
 
The usual bass traps are 2ftx4ft (that's about 0.6m x 1.2m) - not sure what you are seeing, maybe foam?
If you're going to be putting heavy drapes over the window to stop reflections, why not set up your desk on that wall anyway (with the drapes)?
 
Bass traps do need to be floor to ceiling, so generally you'll have to stack something, unless you're having it custom built, and even then, I wouldn't want to try to manage moving something like that. Just to repeat - these things need to be dense, not lightweight. Foam is useless for bass trapping. (Another reason you're unlikely to have or want one that is full height.)

Heavy drapes will work for reflections. I must guess now that your desk has a solid, tall back which would block the window? Is it not removable? I think many of us just have a flat desk, with perhaps a stand or two for computer monitors and audio monitors, if the desk is wide enough to fit them properly. (You'll want some treatment behind the desk as well, so a tall back is kind of problem for that I would think.)

At least in Switzerland your windows are probably built and fitted wel enough you don't have a lot of noise to worry about there!
 
If you're going to be putting heavy drapes over the window to stop reflections, why not set up your desk on that wall anyway (with the drapes)?
I actually meant if heavy drapes would help with first reflections, I could just keep them on the right spot when listening to music/mixing but not necessarily cover the whole window.

Bass traps do need to be floor to ceiling, so generally you'll have to stack something, unless you're having it custom built, and even then, I wouldn't want to try to manage moving something like that. Just to repeat - these things need to be dense, not lightweight. Foam is useless for bass trapping. (Another reason you're unlikely to have or want one that is full height.)

Heavy drapes will work for reflections. I must guess now that your desk has a solid, tall back which would block the window? Is it not removable? I think many of us just have a flat desk, with perhaps a stand or two for computer monitors and audio monitors, if the desk is wide enough to fit them properly. (You'll want some treatment behind the desk as well, so a tall back is kind of problem for that I would think.)

At least in Switzerland your windows are probably built and fitted wel enough you don't have a lot of noise to worry about there!
Oh yeah :P they make them triple glass nowadays, so isolation is really brilliant!
These are actually kind of "glass doors" so they go practically from the floor to the ceiling...but don't be fooled, that hardly means a lot of light in here (I originally come from Italy, and I can't begin to explain how much brighter sun is there)
Anyway, the desk is this: MIZA M | ZAOR, no part can be removed, and also the monitor is fairly tall, so putting it in front of the window really blocks most of the light.
 
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You didn't state your budget. No disrespect, your room is pretty terrible but a) so is mine and b) as you say it is a room dedicated to music so, yeah! I get your point about the natural light but unfortunately that goal is incongruent with good acoustics. You definitely need to position the desk on the short wall, with your speakers as close to the wall as possible to reduce speaker boundary problems. Don't put the speakers on or over the desk. Use stands. You should treat all first reflection points so ideally most of the front wall will end up with 4" rockwool (Roxul or John Manville) or Owens Corning 703 (whatever is cheap and abundant where you live). Depending on the window dimensions you might get some natural light. After you set up your desk and speakers have a friend move a mirror around the wall while you are at the desk and mark the boundaries where you can see a speaker in the mirror. Anywhere you can, cover with insulation, at least 2" thick. Place a ceiling cloud (two or three panels) above the desk/chair, ideally at least 4" thick and offset from the ceiling. Add panels on the back wall first reflection points as well. Do every thing DIY. You'll save hundreds and even thousands of dollars and until you get to more advanced products like diffusors it isn't hard. Now you are in for only a few hundred dollars and this is a great place to start but you haven't tackled the biggest problems in this room...bass and reflections. Concrete walls and a hardwood floor are highly reverberant and don't let a lot of sound out. Even with "normal" building materials bass is a big problem. You need to add some more treatment towards the rear of the room for flutter echo, say maybe six more panels. Then you need bass trapping, as much as you can afford. Don't believe the "you can get by with...". You need a ton of treatment to reduce bass. I recommend floor to ceiling super chunk traps in both front and the left rear corners. Then add super chunks all along the wall ceiling corners. This will cost a lot of money but it is what it is. Now you actually don't need to do this, you can place some 6" traps straddling the corners for some good benefit but based on your stated goals you need as much trapping as possible. I'm in the process of treating my room and have a thread up with detailed plans you can check out (if you don't plan to read the whole thread, start at the end). I got forum advice from acousticians and had to do a lot of changes and rework but my room response is getting better and better. Finally, you need an SPL meter and measurement mic. Use (super awesome freeware) RoomEQ Wizard, i.e. REW and (SUPER IMPORTANT) measure the room empty, then measure every time you make significant changes. You can post those measurements on the forum and people can analyze them. Good luck.
 
BTW: 1) The high end reverb is reflections and flutter echo and the muddiness is bass build up and comb filtering. 2) 2.4 is pretty close to 2.8. Your room is essentially 1:1:2, a pretty bad geometry but a cube is worse so there is that. There are room mode calculators on the internet you can use to calculate the room modes but honestly, it doesn't change the basic treatment guidelines but you should know your problem frequencies so find one and use it. 3) Solid concrete walls might be good for isolation but are very bad for acoustics and require a lot of treatment. 4) Don't get married to a room layout. Place the desk and speakers. Measure the room. Add treatment. Measure the room. Work with what the physics give you. 5) By "playing guitar in" should I assume you mean playing an amp turned up loud? If so, even more so. The higher the amplitude of the initial sound the worse the room resonances are going to be. When the room is well treated you'll be much better able to dial in and enjoy your tone.
 
I actually meant if heavy drapes would help with first reflections, I could just keep them on the right spot when listening to music/mixing but not necessarily cover the whole window.
Drapes will accomplish very little. Even putting carpet on the walls, a well known cheapo approach does little and does more than drapes. When you think treatment, think 2'x4'x2" or 4" or even 6"+ insulation panels. Note thinner panels should be higher density and thicker panels should be lower density (a lesson I learned at great expense). Don't use the heaviest available material for your bass traps. If you stick with OC703 or the rockwool 3lb/ft^3 equivalent throughout you should be ok.
 
Hey Krakadon, thanks a lot for the thorough suggestions! It will take me a little to do all that, though :S but I'll keep you posted on the progress!
A few things in detail:
You didn't state your budget.
I'm quite open. Even a few K would be doable (for an impeccable job, that is)
You definitely need to position the desk on the short wall, with your speakers as close to the wall as possible to reduce speaker boundary problems
As close as possible to the back wall? If I place the desk on the short wall I will probably have wall behind the left speaker and glass behind the right one :(
You should treat all first reflection points so ideally most of the front wall will end up with 4" rockwool
Again, if I put the desk in front of the glass doors, I won't really be able to do this (moving the desk to the short wall might be ok, but covering the glassdoor with rockwool is no-no)
Don't put the speakers on or over the desk. Use stands.
I'm getting some asap.
Finally, you need an SPL meter and measurement mic. Use (super awesome freeware) RoomEQ Wizard, i.e. REW and (SUPER IMPORTANT) measure the room empty, then measure every time you make significant changes.
Alright, same as above :)
By "playing guitar in" should I assume you mean playing an amp turned up loud? If so, even more so. The higher the amplitude of the initial sound the worse the room resonances are going to be. When the room is well treated you'll be much better able to dial in and enjoy your tone.
Yep, that's the case!

I'll make sure to check your thread and get some knowledge from there as well!
 
[MENTION=129196]Laimon[/MENTION] - what kind of studio monitors do you have? Are you planning to put them on the desk or stands? Are they ported, and do the ports face rearward or forward? These things will help determine where you should be sitting to use them for mixing, and what kind of placement (closer to the wall vs farther) will be better, and the treatment you'll need behind them.

I know you're resisting setting the desk on the windowed wall, and honestly, almost all of us make some compromises. While I'm kind of a "do it by the book" (as much as possible) kind of person, it's your room, and I do think this is the kind of decision you might be able to experiment with just to see how it works, before completely commiting. The treatments on the walls and drapes and even bass trapping will likely not change a lot, regardless of orientation, so just try it both ways would be my suggestion. The only thing you might end up fixing one way or the other would be clouds directly above the desk, and having a couple extra up on the ceiling (e.g., if you move it even a year later) is not a bad thing.

Good luck and post some pictures as you move ahead!
 
[MENTION=129196]Laimon[/MENTION] - what kind of studio monitors do you have? Are you planning to put them on the desk or stands? Are they ported, and do the ports face rearward or forward? These things will help determine where you should be sitting to use them for mixing, and what kind of placement (closer to the wall vs farther) will be better, and the treatment you'll need behind them.

I know you're resisting setting the desk on the windowed wall, and honestly, almost all of us make some compromises. While I'm kind of a "do it by the book" (as much as possible) kind of person, it's your room, and I do think this is the kind of decision you might be able to experiment with just to see how it works, before completely commiting. The treatments on the walls and drapes and even bass trapping will likely not change a lot, regardless of orientation, so just try it both ways would be my suggestion. The only thing you might end up fixing one way or the other would be clouds directly above the desk, and having a couple extra up on the ceiling (e.g., if you move it even a year later) is not a bad thing.

Good luck and post some pictures as you move ahead!

Right, as monitors I have a pair of Focal Twin BEs, I don't have proper stands yet but should get them soon. (most likely these: Zaor Stand V36 Grey Oak)
Actually, recommendation on speaker position is also welcome :P

I do plan to try moving the speakers around - most likely this weekend!
 
Right, as monitors I have a pair of Focal Twin BEs, I don't have proper stands yet but should get them soon. (most likely these: Zaor Stand V36 Grey Oak)
Actually, recommendation on speaker position is also welcome :P

I do plan to try moving the speakers around - most likely this weekend!

Wow, astoundingly awesome monitors! Just remember the room is having an enormous impact on the benefit you will get out of them. Moving the speakers around is a great idea but I highly recommend you not do this until you can take REW measurements.
 
Hey guys!
Quick update on the very scarce progress.
1) so I did give in and put the desk on the shorter wall of the room, i.e. against the window. The improvement is maybe not stellar, but it is there. In particular, I don't yet have my seat at the golden 38% of the room's length, but when I go back and forth I can definitely tell how that position works MUCH better (like, a lot of the bass buildup vanishes there - so relieving). So I will push the desk still a little further from the window.
2) I tried to measure my room, but failed completely so far. I got a Behringer measurement mic, but had to return it because I needed to do calibration and absolutely couldn't make REW work with my audio card's driver (it's an EMU 1616m). The calibration step is not necessary with USB measurement mics, so I'll look for one of those hoping I can go to the next steps
3) due to various size constraint I am afraid I'll have to renounce to the bass traps in the back, and do just with the one in the front and on the ceiling (I attach some renders, and you can also see the 3d model here: Floor plans and interior design - Planner 5D)
4) I got in contact with Gik Acoustics for some recommendations. As I am often quite busy with work, I am not too keen to go the DIY route, and I was checking out if I could make it with off-the-shelf components. I think I can use a few of their panels for first reflection points and backwall panels; on the other hand, I am not sure I can go with their traps as they're too large. Namely, the triptrap (41 cm large) would not fit in the corner on the right (where I have only 30 cm) and the soffit trap on the same side would block the door from opening. Can you guys recommend any smaller traps I could use instead?

Of course also any other feedback is appreciated!

Studio Desk against window (less traps).jpgStudio Desk against window (less traps) (1).jpg
 
That's why building your own traps to fit your space makes more sense. You can knock together half a dozen in under 2 hours.
 
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