Questions about placement and treatment

M3TA1

New member
Just got my Primacoustics London 12 kit. I did some research on placing the panels and know to put the 2 bass trap panels on the same wall where I will be sitting (in the corners), and the panels on the side where the first reflection points are.

Before I start, I just need help with my desk/speaker placement and where I should put the panels behind the speakers.

I am using Yamaha HS7 studio monitors and my setup is right in front of 2 windows. How far away should I keep the desk away from the wall? Room is approximately 12x14 and my setup is facing the shorter wall. My windows leak a bit from time to time when the weather is bad so I want to keep it at least a 1ft. Is that enough or should I go further?

Also, since there are windows behind where my speakers are, what should I do regarding putting panels behind the speakers? Should I just put the panels sideways like this:
 
A diagram of your room would help. Unfortunately, those 2" "traps" won't do a lot behind the speakers to absorb bass from the speakers' rear ports. You need at least 4" thick rockwool, but anything will help.
 
I'm intrigued how you chose an audio solution for a problem you don't actually have yet? These things sort out the various issues recording spaces have, and are usually chosen to solve particular issues - you seem to have the solution to a problem you haven't actually got?

Personally why not set the room up for convenience of working, and play some music that will reveal reflections, boxy bass, no bass, weird reflections - then you can experiment and see if what you bought can help (or hinder).
 
I just looked the London 12 kit up - MF price is $769!!!!! Holy sheepshit! Sure, they look nice but .... Comparing them to the GIK individual prices, or better yet - DIY. I could build 16 4"x24"x48" OC703 panels for that much.
 
I know they are expensive but I’m not handy enough to make my own and couldn’t be bothered. I couldnt get GIK acoustics stuff in Canada. The shipping and duties would make it even more expensive. I actually paid $950 in Canadian dollars here in Canada.
 
Another question, if I can’t get my speakers tweeter to be ear level, is it better to angle them down? I have the auralex pads and can do this. Is it better to angel them down or have the tweeter be above ear level?
 
Another question, if I can’t get my speakers tweeter to be ear level, is it better to angle them down? I have the auralex pads and can do this. Is it better to angel them down or have the tweeter be above ear level?

Well that depends... Too many variables to say if it is best in your situation. But I do lean mine down to my seated position with Mopads. Guessing 5 degree angle.
 
Thanks for the reply. I decided to try angling them down and it works better. The tweeters are pointing more towards my ears.
 
Okay so I rearranged my studio a bit. Moved the desk and speakers to be the same distance from both walls, moved the desk and speakers around 1.5ft away from the wall, made the speakers facing in and pointing at my ears, measured an almost equal triangle from both speakers to my listening positing. Then for the treatment, I added the 2 larger panels to the corners of my listening position, then found the 2 first reflection points on both wall (added up to be the same on both wall), and I'm now in the process of setting up the scatter blocks on my back wall.

I'll have 5 scatter blocks and 4 panels left over from the kit. Is there anything I'm missing?

I notice that when I have someone hold the mirror up to find the first reflection points, before the space where panels I added, I see the side of my speakers, should I place a panel there as well? Do you treat the first reflection points only where you see the tweeter and/or cone, or is it any part of the speaker? The first reflection points I treated are the ones where I could see the tweeter and cone.

Back to my first question in the first post in this thread, should I also added 2 panels behind the sparkers horizontally?

I appreciate everyone taking the time to give me advice here. I am new to audio production. I've been doing it on and off for the last few years for my own personal projects. I'm just looking at least my room (even just a bit) with this treatment. I'm not too savvy when it comes to this kind of stuff.
 
It looks wonderful. You haven't yet commented on how it sounds. You ask if you should do this or that - SURELY why not try the ideas out and see if they make any difference? You're dotting panels around and haven't once told us if they help or hinder? You now have 4 on the wall behind. Personally I feel its a big wall and the tiles by area are small. If you have reflections coming back from that wall that spoil the stereo field and create large differences in tone as you move slightly left or right at the mix position, I'd stick those big side panels there and see if you can hear the difference. You seem to be doing the entire project very strangely. Rather like the people who buy performance parts for their car, without ever driving the thing without any fitted - then struggling to tell if they make a difference? Did you fit these things one at a time and then listen, or just stick them up in the positions the manufacturer suggested.

I don't mean to be negative, but it's a fine looking room now, and it looks like a studio should look like, but when you play something produced by someone else - on a CD or streamed - does it sound good? Or does it sound like a hifi with a smiley curve eq? Or sound like a drum and bass fanatics stereo? You mention mirrors to see reflections, but can you hear them? You moved the tweeter alignment and it made a big difference - that's good, the right thing to try - but before you did this, you wasted so much time slapping bits of foam around.

I don't mean to sound unsupportive - but there was so much you could have done to make the room sound better before you spent a grand, you're probably ear tired and relying on a collection of 'rules' to convince yourself it sound good.

If I were sitting in front of the monitors in that near field space, I suspect the room itself is not making a huge negative contribution because your big computer monitor, plus the speakers and then the side walls creates a little bubble you're working in. The down angle on the monitors probably removes the rear wall reflections better than those 4 tiles. The corners of the room probably create any problem bass you have rather than the middle of the wall - did you try those corner panels right up to the ceiling, or right down to the floor?
 
It looks wonderful. You haven't yet commented on how it sounds. You ask if you should do this or that - SURELY why not try the ideas out and see if they make any difference? You're dotting panels around and haven't once told us if they help or hinder? You now have 4 on the wall behind. Personally I feel its a big wall and the tiles by area are small. If you have reflections coming back from that wall that spoil the stereo field and create large differences in tone as you move slightly left or right at the mix position, I'd stick those big side panels there and see if you can hear the difference. You seem to be doing the entire project very strangely. Rather like the people who buy performance parts for their car, without ever driving the thing without any fitted - then struggling to tell if they make a difference? Did you fit these things one at a time and then listen, or just stick them up in the positions the manufacturer suggested.

I don't mean to be negative, but it's a fine looking room now, and it looks like a studio should look like, but when you play something produced by someone else - on a CD or streamed - does it sound good? Or does it sound like a hifi with a smiley curve eq? Or sound like a drum and bass fanatics stereo? You mention mirrors to see reflections, but can you hear them? You moved the tweeter alignment and it made a big difference - that's good, the right thing to try - but before you did this, you wasted so much time slapping bits of foam around.

I don't mean to sound unsupportive - but there was so much you could have done to make the room sound better before you spent a grand, you're probably ear tired and relying on a collection of 'rules' to convince yourself it sound good.

If I were sitting in front of the monitors in that near field space, I suspect the room itself is not making a huge negative contribution because your big computer monitor, plus the speakers and then the side walls creates a little bubble you're working in. The down angle on the monitors probably removes the rear wall reflections better than those 4 tiles. The corners of the room probably create any problem bass you have rather than the middle of the wall - did you try those corner panels right up to the ceiling, or right down to the floor?

I definitely do notice some improvement. Again, I can't really say I'm experienced enough with this kind of stuff to really know where to place panels and such, which is why I'm following these rules. My reason for adding proper treatment (like most), is to get more accurate mixes. There are many times where I'll be mixing a song, it will sound great in my space. Then I take it to another listening environment and set of speakers and there's too much bass, treble, or mids, of the levels aren't right, etc.. I would have been nice to experiment with panel placement and such. One big reason why I didn't was because what is involved with hanging these panels. I can't start poking a bunch of holes in my wall to test many different placements. Also, I think it's better to follow the "rules" first, then modify as I need. I need a foundation - something to get started with. My goal was to setup the room using many of the "rules" I saw, then as I get more experienced and time goes on, move or adjust the panels based on what needs to be done to improve the room's acoustics.

In around 6 months, I will reevaluate my listening environment and see what I can do to improve it.
 
Looking good man.

I personally would have placed the corner traps at floor or gone for full length, but you really will not know how the room is until you experiment.

Have you looked into ceiling tiles with better STC ratings? You could also fill that space with cheap pink stuff that will make a great bit of improvement. Just a thought. Sorry if you already looked into that.

I personally wouldn't bother with any treatment on the front wall (behind monitors) unless you hear an issue. I never had mine acoustically treated until recently and do not notice a big difference.

I have had a few setups with different treatments. What I learned is that every room is different. Some need more, some don't need much. It all comes down to either testing or use. Personally I feel testing is more to make you feel confident before use. Your ears and how it translates to other systems will be the deciding factor. I mixed a record in a 7'x10'x7' high room while the rest of studio/foundation was under construction. The use of nearfield monitors that I was familiar with allowed it happen without anything but front wall corner treatment. But that comes with knowing your babies...
 
Looking good man.

I personally would have placed the corner traps at floor or gone for full length, but you really will not know how the room is until you experiment.

Have you looked into ceiling tiles with better STC ratings? You could also fill that space with cheap pink stuff that will make a great bit of improvement. Just a thought. Sorry if you already looked into that.

I personally wouldn't bother with any treatment on the front wall (behind monitors) unless you hear an issue. I never had mine acoustically treated until recently and do not notice a big difference.

I have had a few setups with different treatments. What I learned is that every room is different. Some need more, some don't need much. It all comes down to either testing or use. Personally I feel testing is more to make you feel confident before use. Your ears and how it translates to other systems will be the deciding factor. I mixed a record in a 7'x10'x7' high room while the rest of studio/foundation was under construction. The use of nearfield monitors that I was familiar with allowed it happen without anything but front wall corner treatment. But that comes with knowing your babies...


I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions. Thanks!
 
Also had another question. I treated my early/first reflection points (2 on each wall). I setup 2 panels right beside each other.

Before the panels I added, I can see the side/almost the back of my speaker in the mirror. Does that count as an early reflection point? Or is it only if you can see the tweeter/cone in the mirror?
 
2 panels on each wall? You mean the 2 you have in pic? And what mirror? Just trying to be clear man.

As a general rule (basic first setup), first reflection points are any wall or ceiling that you could see with a mirror-the monitor speakers from your listening position. That being the point of sound coming from them, which would be the drivers (tweeter/woofer).

By general rule I mean that is a basic starting point. I would say keep with what you have now and see what your recordings tell you. If it not working like you hoped, move some panels and see what happens.
 
2 panels on each wall? You mean the 2 you have in pic? And what mirror? Just trying to be clear man.

As a general rule (basic first setup), first reflection points are any wall or ceiling that you could see with a mirror-the monitor speakers from your listening position. That being the point of sound coming from them, which would be the drivers (tweeter/woofer).

By general rule I mean that is a basic starting point. I would say keep with what you have now and see what your recordings tell you. If it not working like you hoped, move some panels and see what happens.

Yes I am referring to the 2 panels I have right beside each other on my side wall beside the listening position. I put those panels there because I did the mirror trick and saw the tweeter/cone in the mirror. Moving the mirror down towards the the wall with the corner panels, I can see the side of the speaker in mirror. Was wondering if that would count as an early reflection point and if it's likely that sound would hit that place.

Thanks again for your help. Much appreciated.
 
Yes I am referring to the 2 panels I have right beside each other on my side wall beside the listening position. I put those panels there because I did the mirror trick and saw the tweeter/cone in the mirror. Moving the mirror down towards the the wall with the corner panels, I can see the side of the speaker in mirror. Was wondering if that would count as an early reflection point and if it's likely that sound would hit that place.

Thanks again for your help. Much appreciated.


I wonder if there was a misunderstanding here?

With the mirror we are looking for basic reflections from flat walls (and ceiling) and how that reflection in mirror is similar to the way sound travels. High frequencies anyway.

So the mirror would be placed flat on a side wall or ceiling. Where you see your monitors from the mirror placed there at your listening position, is an ideal starting point for broadband acoustic treatment.

This again is only using 'line of sight' as an initial point of interest to control. Sound travels in all directions. The most important to treat are the ones that are reflecting off walls quickly and corrupting what you hear in the upper frequencies. Well, not most important but the first off most obviously noticeable. Then there are the room modes and lower frequencies that plague small rooms. Those are not directional and no mirror will help to fix those. That is the bass trap guessing game. Well, one can find calculators and do testing to make better, but in the end it really comes down to experimentation and your personal needs.

You may be fine with the bass trapping you have for what you plan to achieve. It not likely adequate if you were to aspire to do this for a living. Goals and personal needs will be a part of the investment.

I hope that helped...
 
I wonder if there was a misunderstanding here?

With the mirror we are looking for basic reflections from flat walls (and ceiling) and how that reflection in mirror is similar to the way sound travels. High frequencies anyway.

So the mirror would be placed flat on a side wall or ceiling. Where you see your monitors from the mirror placed there at your listening position, is an ideal starting point for broadband acoustic treatment.

Yes. That's what I did. For the mirror trick, do you place panels only when you see the tweeter/cone in the mirror? If you see the side of the speaker in the mirror in another spot in the wall, do you place the panel there as well? Would that be considered an early reflection point as well? Or not because it's the side of the speaker?
 
Yes. That's what I did. For the mirror trick, do you place panels only when you see the tweeter/cone in the mirror? If you see the side of the speaker in the mirror in another spot in the wall, do you place the panel there as well? Would that be considered an early reflection point as well? Or not because it's the side of the speaker?

Man, I am curious how you could possibly see the speaker in another spot on the wall unless it was not flat against the wall...
 
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