Open to suggestion - New studio build

Fitz, you never cease to amaze me!! This looks incredible!
So we're waiting for the second quote from my contractor, and most likely, he won't be finishing the basement this summer. It'll most likely be a Christmas present from my family, in that my father, brother uncle and I will get to spend a week together over the Holidays putting up walls and flooring. It'll save loads of money on labour, and it'll give me plenty of time to chase the best deals around.
What this (your plan) will allow me to do is position the washroom along the lower wall of the control room, so I can run the plumbing now. In the meantime (this July), I'll leave the whole thing open, with the outer wall completed. If I respect the dimensions you've set up, and hang up moving blankets, theatre curtains (the black velvet kind) and other fabric to do the dimensions, do you think this will affect sound modes for the live space? I have about... oh... 40+ feet of black theatre curtain, that runs about 20+ feet in length. I was planning on eventually, once the traps were set on the walls, running the curtain on three of the four walls (I might have to cut some length, and restitch some fabric to create extra runs) in the live room.
Two more things I've thought about: do power outlets affect the sound in terms of their placement (or where would YOU place them)? And where would the place be to keep instruments (11 guitars, 1 bass, acoustic instruments, etc.. )? In the live room? Control room?
 
chronicle said:
Out of curiosity, what "way" is your way?
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Well, I figured I would cross that bridge once I know what space I have to work with. At least with an unfinished basement I can divide it up however I see fit, run my own electrical to meet my requirements, treat the subfloor space, move utilities, etc much easier.
 
In the meantime (this July), I'll leave the whole thing open, with the outer wall completed. If I respect the dimensions you've set up, and hang up moving blankets, theatre curtains (the black velvet kind) and other fabric to do the dimensions, do you think this will affect sound modes for the live space?
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Well, maybe not the way you would think. Yes, heavy velvet theater curtains will certainly help with H-M freq reflections, and to some extent you do want this. However, in studio reality land, it's the LF part of the spectrum that we're mostly concerned with, and blankets, curtains etc don't help diddly squat. Let me give you some perspective.


First off, the whole point of having a separate CR, is so you can evaluate what the mic's are picking up in the Studio room. In order to CORRECTLY evaluate the various sonic environments in the live room from what you hear in the CR monitors, the CR environment must not mask the live room sonic environment. What this means is, the two rooms have completely different acoustical parameters. The live room should have a variety of sonic signatures, accessed via variable absorption/diffusion boundaries/gobos etc. that allow separation of different instruments so mic bleed/comb filtering is minimized, etc, which is a whole subject unto itself. But generally speaking, the studio is the audio palette, so to speak.

On the other hand, we have the CR, which should have as flat room response as possible, as wide as possible stereo field, and a TIME DELAY GAP(TDG), which is longer than in the Studio...among other things. But it is this longer TDG that differentiates the CR from the Studio, in as much as the only way you can hear Comb Filtering occurring in the Studio(time delay of reflections) is by having a longer delay in the CR than the Studio. Which means the CR is designed in such a way so this TDG occurs. This allows the engineer to evaluate various sonic anomolies TRUTHFULLY. Essentially, it boils down to TRANSLATION. If your control ROOM/ monitors do not LIE, then you can trust that your mixes will tranfer relatively truthfully to other systems and environments.

Look, I'm certainly no expert, and what I've said is a gross over simplification of Studio/CR design. My point is this. MOST home studios are of the "one room for everything" variety. In that regard, yes, you can record/monitor/play in one room, and get good results...hell, it happens all the time. Unfortunately though, in this scenario, playing engineer is a lesson in guesswork, as you must monitor over headphones, and live instrument bleed into the headphones is another problem. Not only that, but the acoustical response in one room may be ideal from the performance perspective, but for the engineer, it may be a nightmare. That's not to say it is impossible to record this way. Recording is an art as well as a science, and one listeners joy may be another listeners bane. But it definitely leaves a lot to be desired.

So, what I'm trying to say is..do what you can.. TEMPORALLY ..BUT, do NOT compromise by setting certain things in stone NOW, that will affect your future construction of the REAL DEAL...which means things like this..
do power outlets affect the sound in terms of their placement (or where would YOU place them)?
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How are you going to install electrical systems when the INTERIOR room envelopes aren't even built yet???? Or HVAC??? or DOORS??? Unless I'm missing something here...essentially you are saying you want to set up TEMPORALLY...in the completely open basement. NO? This implies that there are a ton of things that can NOT be installed at this time, and must be either run temporally(like extension cords) etc. Not to mention, things that haven't even begun to be discussed...I mean...all of a sudden...I believe you are jumping the gun here. To my way of thinking, you have a TON of planning/decisions to do prior to even thinking about electrical etc. Coley, I'd like to help you, but all of a sudden, you seem to have lost track of some things. Maybe you need to clarify some things.

Bottom line is, building a studio like you initially showed in your drawings, and some of the statements you made relative to building this, lead me to believe you wanted help to do it CORRECTLY. Unfortunately though, there are so many things to consider in such a short timespan, let alone on a forum, that you may get ahead of yourself. So, in that regard, maybe you can share your thoughts on what is actually taking place RIGHT NOW. Is or has your "designer" submitted plans for Building Inspection Department approval already? I ask this just to know where this project is at the present moment...because there are a ton of things that affect the actual construction PERMIT that haven't even been addressed yet. And that's the problem. Well, I'm outta time here. Let me know what's going on. We'll go from there.
fitZ
 
They layout works better otherwise? I'm still waiting for the contribution of the entrepreneur, and this may be the amount of work I determine to the basement. But it is set up pipes to the toilet, so I at least you know where this will go, so he can implement. If you have the space and can think of something better for the layout, please let me know. I asked about the living room downstairs, because I thought that was clear, and I'll figure it prescribe a little something different, where everything goes ... But maybe I'm wrong?
 
Hey Fitz,

Hi Fitz, thanks again for writing so much and going into so much detail.

Right now, this week, we're going to the bank with the plans. As far as I understand, because the plan contains the "intent" of putting in a studio, control room, bathroom and lounge in the basement, we're covered for the future. I don't know where you hail from, and if this is different everywhere? But it seems over here as long as the plan says "futur", it means we have the intent of doing it, but don't have to do it now.

So the original idea was to complete the basement, ie, the studio. However, the contractor came back with his estimate, and we're about $20,000 off the mark. And we don't have any light fixtures, etc... so it looks like the budget going to the basement is getting axed. Have no fear, this will get done, just perhaps not this summer. I plan on getting a few contracts for music over the fall and summer, and my uncle and family have offered to help because they know the importance of getting this set up in my house. So this summer, the walls wouldn't go up. We can expect to save about $15,000 this way. The only thing going up would be the outside walls and insolation for the basement walls. I imagine a few electrical plugs would be run down there, so we can vacuum down there, etc... that's why I was asking about the power plugs. If they can affect negatively the sound in a room (I'm not worried about leakage because of it being on the outside wall, and the way he insolates these walls.

I asked about the curtains because I was wondering if I respected the measurements of the rooms, and dropped the curtains all around the live room, could I control some of the modes. I was thinking (perhaps erronously) that the low frequencies might shoot through the curtain (and not bounce back), and could be absorbed further in the basement (if I set up homemade traps, or flower pots, etc.. around the basement space behind the curtains. This would not be permanent, and my wife is looking for ways to get the walls up. But I'd rather wait, and get everything done properly at Christmas, or next summer. Get the walls done properly, get the traps done progressively, rather than rush to get everything learned and done halfassed (and half budget) by the end of June. I figure this is something that should be done properly the first time, rather than have to go back and rework on stuff...

Does this answer all your questions? *I see the irony that this is all borne out of you answering my questions! Thanks again!

**Delgadoren, I'm sorry, I don't understand your comment. I don't know if it's meant for me, or what you'd like to know, or say. Sorry :(
 
But I'd rather wait, and get everything done properly at Christmas, or next summer. Get the walls done properly, get the traps done progressively, rather than rush to get everything learned and done halfassed (and half budget) by the end of June. I figure this is something that should be done properly the first time, rather than have to go back and rework on stuff...
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I don't know your real name, so I'll call you Coley for now..ok?

Coley, I was in no way trying to negate your plans at the moment. But at this point, I feel I must advise you. I believe you are very naive about constructing a "studio", be it at home or not. The point is here is ISOLATION, which requires very strict adherence to various iso construction techniques in order for it to work...even in the slightest. In that regard, now is the time to plan these "techniques" as they are reletively more expensive, if not downright impossible to do, should you just "knock out" this basement as a standard home construction element. Even if you think that your isolation needs are not important at this moment, down the road, when you have a band in the studio, or a loud drummer, or a bass amp, you'll look hindsight squarely in the eyes.
Transmission loss construction is hard enough when you plan for it in the beginning, let alone after the fact. I could gve you a half dozen examples right now...but I won't. Not untill you tell me whether or not you INTEND for this proposed studio to be somewhat "soundproof". The extent to your soundproofing desire to which you would like to aspire, will tell me what it will take to successfully attain this desired TL. And right off the batt..I could tell you "some" of the things it WILL take. However, there are so many unknowns right now, it would be impossible to adequately cover every single detail.

In that regard, IF...you intend for your studio to perform in regards to "soundproofing", you have to define what you think you "need"...in the way of "soundproofing." ie... You don't want ANY sound transmitting to the upstairs...you don't mind a little pounding of a drummer at 2am to reach your sleeping wifes ears.. or a neighbors ears during the day...or the rumble of a truck at the busiest time of the day...etc etc etc... So, tell me. Do you or don't you (a) intend on this studio being "soundproof"..and (b) if so...to what extent? Please define your tolerance and from where to where and from what to what? This is the only way I know of to pin down what it is you are really trying to do here. Because the answers will dictate EXACTLY what you have to PLAN on PRIOR to building the basement/house...waaaaaaaaayy before you start building partition/iso walls...which at this point...I don't even know if you NEED iso construction...you haven't told us ANYTHING in that regard. So...this is where it starts..IF..you want the studio to be QUIET...both outside and in. Otherwise...good luck.;)
 
Hi my name is what, my name is what my name is...

Hi Fitz, you can call me JF. Coley is my last name, and the name of my band, but I think we're at a more personal level at this point. :)

So in terms of soundproofing, yes, I'd like it to be soundproofed. How soundproofed? OK. Well I don't mind if I hear some drums on the main floor (above), upstairs, I don't think much will be heard. If I'm recording at night, I'll be doing the drumming, so I can lighten the touch. But a little leakage above isn't a big concern. It's the mud room above, no one will complain. On the top floor, the master bed and bathroom won't be a big concern since my wife goes to bed.... anyways, all this to say that some leakage is ok. I'm mostly concerned about the live room picking up other sounds. Which I guess comes back to the same thing. I'd be recording in low traffic days or low traffic hours (where kids are sleeping or out), so there aren't too many concerns with internal noise sources. My house is on a low traffic residential street (only about 30 houses), and backs onto a stream. No risk of big noises.

But I realize the importance of soundproofing.

Screw the neighbours. I've got a shooting range in the backyard (indoor range). If they have trouble with my Marshall, but not with the occasional pop of a gun, they have issues... (You don't hear the guns indoors).

I like the idea of being able to run the monitors while taping live. So it needs to be soundproofed. I find it harder to track drums when I'm line checking, and I can't run the monitors too loud. Then during takes I have to kill the monitors so it doesn't bleed in the take. I can then bring it back up to mix. My current set up is a doubled up wall I insolated separating my live room and control room. It ain't perfect, but I've done quite a bit of commercial work in there. I can tolerate inadequate, but I'd like to get it done as properly as possible.

In the end, budget comes up as a big determining factor.

I want the space to be a comfortable, welcoming and good sounding room. If I like to play in the room, I'll get good takes, and my family can tolerate the noise. Same for people coming in to record. Short short term, I'll be the primary user of the space. To record and track my own stuff, and do some commercial or publishing stuff. But I love producing bands, and have done it quite a bit. Now that I'm getting back into it, and working with a lot of high school kids, I might be able to get some demand to produce again. So I could be using this space to produce other acts. Soundproofing at that point could become more important with regards to traffic above, if I'm producing on weekends when kids are at home....
 
Ok JF. NOW I understand where you are coming from. I have no time at the moment. But I'll be back with some suggestions. Hang in there.
fitZ
 
:laughings: cool. Well, I'm back with a few more questions. First off, I need you to understand there is no way I can actually detail any structural/HVAC or other elements that require professional input or approval from the Building Inspection Department. However, in order to offer suggestions that may help you decide on some things, there are factors I need to know.


1. Where are you located?
2. What are the proposed basement walls going to be made from..ie..Concrete, Cconcrete block, brick, wood framing or what? And are all these walls below grade?
3. Has your designer/architect drawn any details/sections of the basement footing/foundations/slab/wall construction and connections? If so, can you post them?
4. Has anyone decided on what type of HVAC you are using?
5. Has a location for the unit been decided? Or a ducting scheme?
6. I would like to see the actual upstairs plan, as the stairway that is planned may or may not work according to other ideas, which untill I know your answers, I can't be sure of.
(note how my "idea" moves the stairs whereby you may have to have an "L" shaped Stairway with a landing at some point. This is what I am referring to. The reason was to allow a door under the stairway, without increasing Live room length while decreasing CR length, of which framing of this may or maynot be possible due to prior design limitations/upstairs elements. Also, I percieved the possibility of using the space under the stairs for HVAC/Plenum/ducting requirements)

7. Is there any plan showing the first floor framing schedule(nominal lumber size)/layout? If so, can you post it? If so, can you include any details/sections? Are there any beams?
8. Are you still working with your designer/architect?

That's all for now. As soon as you can answer these, and post anything you can in regards to the questions, I'll jump on the info ASAP and get back to you.
 
As far as I know, over here, you can make pretty much ANY changes inside your home, so long as you don't touch the structural stuff (support posts and beams)....

I'm in Sherbrooke Quebec. I don't know if that's what you meant by location. House facing south. Dirt lot with some slate around. Trees on the lot line... I hope one of these is the answer you're looking for.

2. Concrete walls with concrete floor. Framing with sprayed (I believe) insulation and gyproc on the inside.
3. The only drawing I have the one I posted a while back that you used to make your first drawing.
4. We have an air exchanger running through the house, that's all I'd use I think.
5. No, but man, that makes sense doesn't it. I know I asked about putting it in the garage.
6. My wife is very understanding with the studio, moving the stairs can't be an option however. Sorry... we'll have to make do! haha

7. I will try to attach the plans, kitchen will be different however (same size, but island and cabinets will be moved around...)
8. Yeah, though she's being really unpleasant right now... she works for our contractor, not us, directly...

Thanks again (uploading pics being a bugger again...)
 

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Hi JF. I need something ASAP...if you can please.

1. A picture of the site.
2. A perspective drawing or elevations of the House.


Thanks.
 
What do you mean by a picture of the site?? Like, outside with the trees?
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Yea, from a couple of different directions. And if you could edit them to show where the garage is supposed to be..that would be great.

JF. I have a reason for asking for these. You'll see why soon.
 
Apologies

Hey Fitz,
I'm very sorry about the tardiness of my reply. I'm in the school play (I wrote the songs for the play, and am directing the house band), am taking charge of moving (we have to be out by next week), and am coordinating all the construction stuff (haven't been able to start yet).... so I get up at 6h45, go to work, stay at school til 7, come home, pretend to spend "quality" time with the kids, then head off to the house to pack until 12, then come home and crash...

OK, enough pity party. Especially when you're doing all this work!! I don't have pictures of the lot, nothing that would be of any use to you... I could go take pictures, but I was thinking that would be pointless anyways, since the lot won't look anything like it does now. The street in front of the house has a very small incline, not enough to be unable to play hockey (national sport) or soccer out there. The lot slopes down to the street, with the back of the lot being about.. oh, 12-15 feet higher than the front, over 100 feet. Using Pythagoras, the length of actual land going down is about 102 feet. Now, I say this is pointless, because there are trees on the lot. These will get plowed down, roots removed. Which will bring the whole thing down a few feet. The contractor said they had to take out truckloads of dirt on the other builds on the street to level out (which is sort of his plan), so by the end, the lot should have a fairly gentle slope towards the street, maybe at its highest point being about 3 feet higher. There will be old old trees lining the lot on each side (lot is 80 feet wide, house about 40). The house will be closer to the line on the right side (as the plan you see now may be flipped over. Exact same dimensions, but might be done to maximize sunlight on the main floor. But the bulldozer will come in, and give it whatever shape we want, so pics of what it looks like now won'T represent what's there later. Behind the house, there's about a 20 foot dropoff to a little creek about 30 feet away.

Thanks again for everything. We open tonight, have another show tomorrow and saturday, and then life should take on some look of normalcy....
 
Wow. You one busy dude. No problem. Actually, the reason I wanted to see the site was to get an idea of how DEEP the basement was below grade. AND, the difference in height from the basement floor, to the garage floor. I wanted to see the elevations to get an overview of what the building looks like. You'll see why. But if you can figure out those things for me, I can get on with this. Till then...good luck with the play and the move....er...the MOVE???? You're moving IN??? I thought it wasn't even built yet.:eek: hmmm, I need to get this info to you quick. I'll be back so you can see what I'm talking about. Lots to consider BEFORE the first floor is built. BTW, I didn't see any bedrooms in your plan.:confused:
 
The windows to the basement will be about 5 feet above the floor, and the garage floor will be about 2 feet below the 1st storey floor (which'll make it about one foot from the ceiling of the basement.

We'Re moving into my parents' house and storage. Actually, we're already there, but our stuff isn't. We have to be out of our house early may. Yay, two moves... They're cutting down the trees on the property today though. Getting exciting to know I'll be in debt another 30 years....
 
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