home recording dilemma

[Rickson Gracie]

i have a pretty nice basement analog studio setup (Tascam TSR-8, LA 610 preamps, BLUE Blueberry mic..etc) but my vocal and acoustic guitar (especially) recording seem subpar.

the room is about 400 sq feet with 6 ft 8 inch ceilings. tiled floors with a big rug in the center. i have a bar in one side with carpeted sides and a futon against another wall.

in comparison ive messed around recording the same acoustic guitar in my living room which has 15 foot vaulted ceilings with a crappy $59 USB mic into my laptop and the recording sounds much better!

ive thought about tracking in my living room and mixing in the basement but that would mean a new deck, mixer and over all a pain in the ass situation.

is it possible to get good tracking with low basement ceilings? what type of acoustic treatment would help?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

is it possible to get good tracking with low basement ceilings? what type of acoustic treatment would help?

Hello Rickson. Yes it is. Your square footage suggest a fairly large room with a low cieling. What is the ceiling material and can you remove a portion of it? If you can, I have some suggestions for you. But I need more info on your room. Size, ceiling construction, mixing location and geometry..maybe a plan if you can post it. But as a general suggestion...for small rooms with low cielings...absorption is your best friend..lots of it. Tell us what you can and we'll go from there.
fitZ

 

[agallo]

It's all about the sweet spot.

There are many factors to take into consideration; room height, windows, how much stuff there is in the room? Are you using extremely long patch chords? Where I think your problem is the TSR-8, 1/2" tape reel offering ok, but not the greatest sonic complexity if you ask me. Your ear just may be used to how high quality digital stuff sounds now. I mean for the $500-700 you could make selling that thing privately, you could buy an apogee duet if mac, an echo, Audiofire 8 (that thing records at 24/192) and with the nice UA 610 Pres and mic collection, your stuff would be smoking.
But it comes across that you are pretty attached if you haven't already made the switch.
I would say go to a hardware store and get some wood stripping and some glue nails and make some frames. Then Wrap those frames in a nice dence cloth and line with fiber glass, or nothing. Thats an acoustic treatment that could save you.
Lastly what are you using for reverb, eq, etc???

 

[jhbrandt]

Rickson,

The reason you get a better recording in your living room is because of the space and diffusion. Please don't take Rick's advice. (sorry Rick) You will only make your situation worse. - Without the important spatial cues that we normally hear, (such as is heard in a living room or bedroom) we suffer from what is know in acoustic circles as ear fatigue (which is caused by dead listening rooms or anechoic chamber). This is because of the alien environment. We humans did not evolve in such an environment nor were we meant to work in one.

Since the ceiling is low, I suggest that you put diffusors on the ceiling (you can make these... QRD style). And try decorating the walls with wood slats and or anything that will add diffusion. Some absorption (2' by 4' rigid fiberglass) in patches will also help with the diffusion. Make some polys to go on the walls...

If you give me the exact dimensions in inches, I can calculate your room modes and give some solutions for them.

There are many things you can do to make it sound good in your studio without breaking the bank.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

the room is about 400 sq feet with 6 ft 8 inch ceilings. tiled floors with a big rug in the center. i have a bar in one side with carpeted sides and a futon against another wall.
is it possible to get good tracking with low basement ceilings? what type of acoustic treatment would help?

for small rooms with low cielings...absorption is your best friend..lots of it.

Please don't take Rick's advice. (sorry Rick)

With all due respect....Bullshit. The room he wants to STAY in is 400 sf. That means, by guessing the dimensions, it is at LEAST 20'x20' to give you an idea of its size. Even though still a small room, it is large by Homestudio standards. The problem is Comb filtering via the 6' 8" cieling. And there is only ONE way to prevent it...ABSORPTION And since the ceiling is already low, my thinking is to remove the drywall over a small area where he places a mic, LINE the joist cavitys with 2 layers of drywall up against the existing subfloor above and then either fill the entire cavity with batt insulation, or a layer of 4" OC703 and cover with fabric. This will keep the cieling from being lowered even more, and adding the mass will keep or even improve what existing Transmission Loss he had in the first place. This is all ASSUMING he doesn't have a DROPPED grid cieling. Should a dropped cieling be the case, then no need to remove drywall from a ceiling above it, unless there is NONE Simply line the airgap as described above.

I hadn't even mentioned broadband/LF absorption yet because of lack of info on his mixing geometry and room dimensions, monitor axis etc. However, I'm STILL going to suggest that LOTS of bass trapping such as floor to ceiling SUPERCHUNKS of 703 in the corners, and patchwork broadband absorption placed according to his geometry, both on walls and over the mixing station as well as sidewall first reflection points. You MUST know as well as I do, this is STANDARD HOMESTUDIO TREATMENT PRACTICE. I don't understand what you are implying here, but your full of shit. My recommendation is ONLY by way of limited info on his room. You negated it without even offering an alternative. You negated ABSORBPTION but didn't even offer a solution to his problem which since in your view absorption is WRONG..then that only leaves....ahem...diffusion...which you didn't even offer an insight on how to achieve a "diffuse sound field" in his space. BTW, in reality, you kinda put words in my mouth by this....

Without the important spatial cues that we normally hear, (such as is heard in a living room or bedroom) we suffer from what is know in acoustic circles as ear fatigue (which is caused by dead listening rooms or anechoic chamber).

NOWHERE, did I suggest making his space totally DEAD. I only implied that the only way to negate Comb filtering from the cieling is to use absorption THERE. As to "spacial clues", remember, this is a small room where diffusion is limited by the room dimensions. Yea, spacial clues are important, but eliminating comb filtering/modal response is more important in my view. And small rooms are NOTORIOUS for these problems. And usually, the ONLY way to deal with them is ABSORPTION...
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=535
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2116
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=47


BTW, for even smaller rooms, trying to achieve "spacial clues" without mud is absurd.

 

[Rickson Gracie]

There are many factors to take into consideration; room height, windows, how much stuff there is in the room? Are you using extremely long patch chords? Where I think your problem is the TSR-8, 1/2" tape reel offering ok, but not the greatest sonic complexity if you ask me. Your ear just may be used to how high quality digital stuff sounds now. I mean for the $500-700 you could make selling that thing privately, you could buy an apogee duet if mac, an echo, Audiofire 8 (that thing records at 24/192) and with the nice UA 610 Pres and mic collection, your stuff would be smoking.
But it comes across that you are pretty attached if you haven't already made the switch.
I would say go to a hardware store and get some wood stripping and some glue nails and make some frames. Then Wrap those frames in a nice dence cloth and line with fiber glass, or nothing. Thats an acoustic treatment that could save you.
Lastly what are you using for reverb, eq, etc???

i actually have an apogee rosetta 800 connected to a digi002R into a new iMac in the same rack as my TSR-8 the TSR-8 is a warmer and richer sound than the digital rig and definitely has much more potential than a $59 usb mic. i might go back to digital one day but right now im keeping everything digital free.

im using a demeter spring reverb rack for reverb and im waiting for an oram (trident) 8 channel console to be delivered soon.

for treatment i would like to use materials i could buy at guitar center or online. im not too much of a DIY guy.

 

[Rickson Gracie]

thanks jhbrandt and rick.

i just recently had the room done with soundproof drywall on the walls and ceilings to try to contain the sound to the upstairs. i have recessed lighting throughout the ceiling.

the room is 19 ft by 21 ft with porcelain tiled floor and a 7-9 Berber rug in the center.

- the north wall of the room is a carpeted bar with bar stools...etc.

- the east wall is a futon couch with a hallway in the corner leading out.

- the south wall is a wall with sliding glass doors that are covered with fabric drapes

- the west wall is my mixing area.

without a diagram this is the best way to describe the room.

i would like to use materials that i can buy at mf.com or wherever. i am not a DIY guy thanks again for your help

 

[BentRabbit]

Listen to Rick... He knows his stuff...

Also check out any posts from Ethan Winer or Rod Gervais on these boards... They've forgotten more about acoustically tuning your room than most of us will ever likely know...

I've never seen any posts by jhbrandt before today, but based on this post and the website he lists in his signature, the guy is pretty much clueless...

Rick did a good job of dispelling a few of his claims, and I really don't think anyone has enough time to go point by point over where he was totally offbase...

I'm no expert by any means, but I record in a 17x30 foot basement with 7 foot ceilings following the advice and guidelines from Rick, Ethan and others who followed their advice and posted their results.

Placing diffusors on an already low ceiling instead of using absorption...??? Wow...
And this guy says he charges for his services too...

 

[Ethan Winer]

I already answered this in the other section the same questions were posted. Absorption is the key.

--Ethan

 

[Rickson Gracie]

so installing something like these 12x12 panels above the tracking area should do the trick??

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Auralex-SONOSUEDE-HD-1212-Qty-12-105134274-i1429420.gc

if yes how close should they be. how many would i need?

Thanks

 

[jhbrandt]

Guys,

Rickson, yes the Sonosuede panels will do very nicely. But if you put them on the ceiling - checker-board them.. with a few missing here and there.

You can create a diffuse atmosphere with a few absorption panels scattered around the room.

Create a reflection free zone for your monitoring area and eliminate any flutter echo, which may be your main concern in the mid frequencies, by placing the Sononsuede panels in vertical rows on the side walls - alternate the pattern so that each row is facing a blank wall on the other side.

These panels, by the way, will create a diffuse atmosphere when installed correctly.

Good luck, Rickson, I am sure that you will sort it out.

I am new on here. And I am only trying to offer some help. Rick, just say that 'in your opinion' and you 'strongly disagree'... maybe ask me to clarify. Usually when you tell someone that absorption is the key.. they go out and destroy the sound of the room. I actually do know what I'm talking about. Maybe I wasn't clear enough before. I am new to these forums. And Bent, please, I don't know you, but if you did go to the site listed in my signature... did you read it? OH! maybe I offer something different... maybe I have some different solutions to offer. OMG, it's something very high tech! Don't let anyone know.. quick shoot it down before they get a better sound than you. (you show your ignorance by shooting down something you do not understand) Don't be so rude. This is not about YOU.

Let's try to help Rickson. We are supposed to be here to help each other.

-- I would very much enjoy talking to Ethan, whom I respect.

 

[BentRabbit]

Guys,

And Bent, please, I don't know you, but if you did go to the site listed in my signature... did you read it? OH! maybe I offer something different... maybe I have some different solutions to offer. OMG, it's something very high tech! Don't let anyone know.. quick shoot it down before they get a better sound than you. (you show your ignorance by shooting down something you do not understand) Don't be so rude. This is not about YOU.

Well bud, we must be talking about two different sites, because the only thing I see in the one in your link is a page looks like a Ginsu knife commercial offering folks your services that you say is worth over $6K... Here it is verbatim:

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Other than 'Bonuses' or Testimonials, it doesn't ever detail what 'all this' is... or any links anywhere else...?

So you'll forgive my 'ignorance' in not seeing how you "offer something different", or your "different solutions to offer", or anything resembling "very high tech!"

You are correct in saying this is not about me, it's about helping the OP solve some issues in his recording space. You shot down Rick's suggestion immediately even tho it coincided with what Ethan said (whom you respect), so basically, telling the original poster to disregard your advice and listen to Rick and Ethan IS helping him with his question.

Good luck with your consulting business.