Can't get rid of a standing wave

Aren

New member
I have a very problematic room, and I'm trying to tame it a little.
room.jpg

As you can see, there are two built-in closets. There is a shelf in each of them about 3/4 of the height, making them basically useless as far as placing any traps in them.
I built (so far) 4 4'X8' broadband panels, made with 5" Ultratouch sitting on a frame made of 1X1's. I hung 3 of them on the wall opposite of the mixing desk (above the sofa) diagonally on the wall/ceiling cornet. There is also one right above the mixing desk, same configuration.
I still have an annoying standing wave around 130-165Hz. What am I doing wrong here?

for what it's worth i have enough Ultratouch for 4 more panels or anything else that can be done.

Thanks!

Oren
 
Just by playing a sine wave in different frequencies
And what do you hear when you reached this frequencie range? It may be one or both of your "loosly coupled" closets resonating. Have you tried blocking them off? What is the dimensions of the room without the closets? This may tell you something about the modal response as the rooms dimensions dictate them. I would suggest using "superchunks" in the four corners of your room as these frequencies are Low, and need bass trapping to eliminate them. Very small rooms need all the trapping they can get. Read these for more info.

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtop.../forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=535
fitZ
 
Thanks for you reply. I'm not sure how to describe what happens in these frequencies - I don't hear anything resonating, it's more like they're "bouncing" of the walls.
The metric dimensions of the room (without the closets) are 3.60X3.00, height is 2.45. closets are 115X65, and have this ridiculous 70's-style "accordion" door. They are in use and have a lot of clothes in them. There is no difference in low-frequency response if the doors are open or closed
Considering the door, window and closets, where/how would you 'superchunk' the room? Maybe a different type of bass-trapping is possible?
 
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PM me and I'll give you my email addy so you can email the Sketchup file to me. Then I'll try to show you what you can do.
fitZ:)
 
for what it's worth i have enough Ultratouch for 4 more panels or anything else that can be done.
Yea, lots.:D If you don't mind rearranging your room and rebuilding some panels.:)
QUOTE] built (so far) 4 4'X8' broadband panels, made with 5" Ultratouch sitting on a frame made of 1X1's. I hung 3 of them on the wall opposite of the mixing desk (above the sofa) diagonally on the wall/ceiling cornet. There is also one right above the mixing desk, same configuration.
[/QUOTE]

I'm a little confused about the 3 panels hung "diagonally on the wall/ceiling corner. Since these panels are 4'x8', exactly how did you arrange them? I don't see how you could do this.

Can you draw them in Sketchup and insert them in the room as they exist? Same with the other panel. I've drawn the only way I could envision these size panels in the room. You may have to disassemble these and use what you have left to RE-BUILD some panels in a few different configurations. I'll tell you why.

First off, I will offer my DISCLAIMER. I certainly do not claim to be an expert in acoustics. I know a little by professional acoustics standards, but that doesn't mean I know nothing.;) And I do go by a feeling in my gut sometimes. And this is one of those times.
In regards to your "standing wave" problem, my first instinct was look at your closets, as they are "loosly coupled" spaces. Actually, they are boxes which can act just like rooms...ie...they have modal resonances themself that can affect the actual room's acoustics. ..ie..any outstanding axial modes from these closets MAY be heard in the room. So acting on that instinct I went here:
http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

This is an online room mode calculator. Which I used to look at the modal response of your room. Actually, it wasn't bad.

First I punched in the room dimensions(minus the closets)based on your Sketchup drawing. The calculator didn't show anything outstanding that could cause your problem. HOWEVER...
when I punched in the dimensions of ONE of the closets...VOILA!!! There it was...clear as day. Three axial modes with a "warning" scale of 1-2, as these three modes are somewhat isolated from the next group above and one below. And guess what? These three modes are at...yup, you guessed it...
140.5 hz, one at 149.5hz, and one at VOILA!! 165.2hz. Right in the range you said you had a standing wave. Actually,since one side of the closet is open, and this is the SMALL dimension, I don't think the 140.5 hz is correct, as the depth of the closet isn't true, as the actual dimension is the depth of the closet plus the width of the room(the other is the length of the room), which may even have a bearing on the rooms dimensions as well, even though a major portion of the walls DO have the room dimensions. It is these short "openings" in the walls at the closet opening which gives a "loosly coupled space", of which you have two...one facing the width of the room, and one facing the length of the room. AND, one other thing. These closets are at the opposite CORNERS of the room, which is where LOW FREQUENCY MODES terminate, and by simple reasoning, it seem that these closets allow low frequencies to "resonate"(modal buildup) within them, affects the rooms volume of air and its own modal response. Now, I could be totally wrong, and if any REAL experts out there have a better explanation, then LETS HEAR IT!:D

Anyway, thats my best "non expert" analysis. But now, we have to figure out how to solve it. In my mind, I would think the only way would be to LINE THE CLOSET with some of your left over or reconfigured panel material. Since you only have to treat ONE surface of a set of two parallel boundarys to stop(or attenuate) a standing wave(from my understanding), then personally, I'd try this. Line the back of the closet with one panel(split for the shelf) and line the closet depth wall, on the surface that continues as the room wall. (See my drawing).

And actually, if it were me, I'd do some other things as well . I know you have a couch in there, but when push comes to shove, I'd rearrange my room to place my monitoring position on the LONG axis, and either put the couch behind the chair, or eliminate it for space to record. Then I'd build a cover for the window(lined with Ultratouch) as well as place panels of ultratouch over it. Then I'd build a few "superchunks" or 2'x8 panels to place diagonally across the corners floor to ceiling, AND OR, some for hanging diagonally at the wall' ceiling intersections. Since you have plenty of Ultratouch(enough for EIGHT 4'x8' panels:eek:) you might as well use it. This may make the room kinda dead, but thats what happens in small rooms to absorb enough low frequencys, the mid/highs get absorbed as well, ALTHOUGH, you can wrap the panels in a thin plastic membrane before covering with fabric. This will help reflect the highs. In fact, some manufacturers of absorption products actually wrap their absorbers with a membrane premanufactured with holes in it which allows a somewhat "diffusion" to occur as well. Like this:
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You said you have already built FOUR, 5"x48"x96" panels. Is that right? Personally I'd cut these in HALF, lengthwise, and remake 8 of these 24"x whatever you need for height or length/width of the room at the ceiling. See my drawing. Understand this. Small rooms such as yours need ALL THE BASS TRAPPING THEY CAN GET!;) A couple of these might have to be mounted on hinged panels in front of the accordian doors so you can fold them back or move them when necessary(although if you line the closets, I don't see no need for access to them...UNLESS you have clothing or other stuff in them). And the one in front of the door. You can always move these to mix.

Then I'd use your other Ultra touch to make some panels at the rear wall(the one with the door) and over the window panel, some early reflection panels, and a cloud. See my drawing. You might even want to build a POLY diffuser for the rear wall since you will already have two floor to ceiling diagonal panels in those corners. See my drawings.

Anyway, thats the best I can offer for a solution. And I'm outa time. If you have any questions, fire away.
btw, see this for monitoring position layout.
http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm

fitZ:)
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Hi Rick,

First of all, thanks for your hard work!
Second - I'm an idiot... I have no idea why I wrote 4X8 panels. What I made are four 2X4s and I have enough material for 4 more of those. Oops...

Also, your suggestions are great, but unfortunately, not very practical in my case. The room has to function also as my wife's study, and a spare bedroom for when we have guests. My wife took one look at your Sketch-ups and hinted at severe consequences if I'll go through with the plan ;)
I realize this may be a problem without a reasonable solution. An acoustic engineer who replied to my thread at another forum suggested that in order to make do with these conditions, my best bet is to treat the wall behind the monitors as much as I can, and add some panels on the side walls. This will, of course, not solve the actual standing wave problem, but may help absorb theses frequencies before they get to the closets...

Thanks again, and I'll report the results when there are some.
 
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