Building a DAW Desk, need help with Computer Cabinet

88fingers

Member
Hello,
I've been having this conversation over at studio-central:

http://studio-central.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=73085

I just wanted to get some extra input. Maybe Fitzpatrick or some of the other bigwigs around here will help a brother out! :)

I'm building a desk that will have a computer cabinet in it. The Cabinet will be 15"W x 18"H x 20"D, with a door on the front (that I'm going to seal with weather-stripping, I think).

I need to get air circulation inside the cabinet. My thoughts were to install an intake fan on the outside near the bottom, then an exhaust fan near the top on the back. One guy on that forum told me to put a large intake at the bottom and small exhaust, thus creating more "positive air pressure" as he put it. Then another guy has since been (seemingly?) saying that I don't need an intake fan, just a good exhaust.

What are you guys' thoughts on it, and how do you usually build cabinets for your computers?

Thanks!
 
Maybe Fitzpatrick or some of the other bigwigs around here will help a brother out!
:eek::eek::eek: bigwigs? umm, I'm afraid you've mistaken me for someone who speaks with authority...fact is...I'm just an old fart who's read a lot..;) There are some people here who vehometly disagree with my views on some of this stuff. But like I keep tellin em..."where were you when I was building my console.:p

Ok, well...what can I help you with? The last time I posted stuff about my console a few assholes here tried to tell me I was all wrong about the computer locations. UNTILL....I showed em my TECH testing everything:rolleyes: emf my ass. Show me a person that can hear its effects on my mixer when listening to a recording I made and I'll eat my fucking hat. geeezus..some people are so anal about this stuff they can't smell their own shit. anyway.....

Ok, heres my view. Whats the point of putting a computer in a box to hide the fan and HD noise, if you're gonna mount the same thing on the outside of the box that the computer has.....ie.....FANS:rolleyes:

You have to get the fans WITHIN a PLENUM, with the supply side DUCTS long enough, with enough bends and absorption in FRONT of the intake and after the exhaust to keep the sound of thes fan sound from feeding back into the room via either structural transmission or air transmission...not an easy task even for small computer fans. .....ie..........


My solutions can be found here, with some negative comments on them from a few other members. Oh well. I'm STILL using it and it kicks ass.

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=286692&highlight=computer

Anyway, you asked.......thats what I did. To each his own.

cheers

bigwhig........NOT!;)
 
I should have known that once Rick came along, I'd have to rethink everything I was already planning. ;)

Rick, a ton of what you said is stuff I had already considered, but the guy on studio-central forums made me think that with a big enough fan, the noise would be lessened by doing a "case within a case" (so to speak).

So it looks like what you're saying is, I would need to put some "duct work" from the exhaust area of the cabinet, with several "bends" (possibly coming around behind the desk?) to help disperse the sound? Am I reading that right? Also, do you have something similar with the intake? I can't tell from the pictures. Also from the pictures, I have a hard time discerning where the exhaust plenums end up. How far do they go, and where does the air come out? Do you have any schematics anywhere you could share?

And what did you build those tubes out of anyway? (Sorry if all that is answered in the thread, I just went straight to the pics since I was in a hurry to head out and meet some friends - if it's all answered there, I'll read it fully this evening)

Thanks a ton!
 
you are making it too complicated.
pay attention to the components in your DAW:
if you have a quiet drive, and optimize the airflow inside the box, you can probaby get by with one large, slow moving fan, and maybe a nice quiet fan on a high quality power supply.
Make sure you have a video card that does not use a fan, and if you do use one, disable the fan on the video card and work out the ducting so taht you can use the air in the case to blow by the card on the way out.
I have one big fan inside the case, and one small squirrel cage fan in the power supply. Air enters my through my CPU cooler and exits via the power supply and the single large fan I have that blows across the video card on its way out of the box. Noise level is below my threshold.
Putting your cpu in a box will be a royal pain in the ass, cooling wise, access wise, and space wise. Efficient air handling and throughtful selection of components will serve you much better.
Barring that, relocate the CPU outside of your recording space with long cables.
cheers
C.
 
Another option (for some studios) is to isolate your PC in a box, and the run a dampened exhaust duct through a wall to another room and put your exhaust fan in the other room. The "other" room could be anything. A garage, attic, closet.... anything that that keeps to fan noise out of the studio.
 
you are making it too complicated.

That all depends on what your skills, needs, and plain old vision you have. I WANTED IT this way...so thats what "I" did:rolleyes:

I have a hard time discerning where the exhaust plenums end up. How far do they go, and where does the air come out? Do you have any schematics anywhere you could share?
Sure. No prob. The first batch are the finished product with sections. The second is parts and construction. However, this was designed to fit my console, so no dimensions are included...although I could furnish them. The point is to illustrate the principles and ideas. Some people will roll their eyes...doesn't bother me....I HAVE IT NOW and it works maaaaaaaaaaarvelous dahling.:D

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:)
 
OOOPS!! Forgot the ones showing the EXHAUST Plenum and ducts(The white thingy in the center of the back. Made of 1/8" Art board and has to SLOT FANS to suck out the hot air send it down to the bottom baffle via the middle plenum.

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Well, thats my story and I'm stickin to it.;)
 
Wow Rick, that is a SERIOUS system there. I've studied it (and restudied it) and think I've got some ideas figured out for my specific situation, based off yours. A couple questions about the direction of the airflow.

In this pic (which looks like it's the most completed view of what's going on inside before you put tops and more foam on): http://httpics.com//is.php?i=902&img=19_Computer_Fix.jpg

The exhaust is coming off the back of the computers (in what looks to be two custom-cut slots about an inch or two wide by six-ish long?) into the white manifold, which then has two exhaust fans in it, it looks like. These fans then pull the air into the white center section, which sends it into the bottom section. Am I reading that right? And then the bottom section has no more fans, it is just natural air flow based on pressure that releases the air out the bottom.

For the intake, air is being drawn through the sides, and twists and turns a bit through that brown section, to the two fans (per computer), not connected to the computer.

So no fans actually connected to the computer (other than the power supply, I assume), all fans are part of the desk system, right? What types of fans are those intake fans, and what kind of material are the "green" boxes around them constructed from? Also what are the brown sections constructed from?

Finally, I see one mention of the cable chase, but I don't really see how they come out without breaking all the seals you have all over the place.

Oh, and what program did you use to draw this up? I would like to get some schematics up for mine without hand-drawing everything and scanning. :)

Thanks so much! People can roll their eyes all they want, I want a silent, cool system, and I'm not afraid to take extra steps to get it.
 
Hello again. Ok, you understand the exhaust. The supply side is exactly the same. It is pulled from the bottom through the vents at each end of the bottom baffle. Airflow twists through this baffle, and then is pulled up into the plenum with the angled divider, and then into the brown plenum, where meets 2 180 degree turns within, and then through the fans.

Here is the idea. The computer chambers are sealed, except for the supply and return vents in the bottom. The 2 fans in the green decoupling foam, provide a positive pressure within each of the chambers. The computer powersupply fans therefore have a continual supply of pressurized cool air to pull into the computers themself. Actually, there is a fan in the front of the computers as well. The two exhaust fans pull hot air out of the computers and direct them into a plenum, and then down into the baffle.

The point of all this is DISTANCE and DIRECTION and DECOUPLING. For every doubling of distance from the source of sound, it reduces 6db. I figured if I created a pathway long enough, and with enough 180 bends, and all mechanical connections decoupled from the enclosure, the sound of the fans would be eliminated. And the sealed chambers would eliminate the HD noise as well.

But here is my disclaimer. This project was an afterthefact modification of the existing case. I built the case the year before, with no plan for this. It sort of evolved. I'm sure there are simpler ways, and with a little forethought, I could have done it better. Hindsight is always 20/20, but you have to work with what you have, right? Thats what I did. No matter, it works. But to what EXACT extent, I couldn't tell you because I've never actually measured the noise floor with, and without the system running. All I can say is...for me, it works.
Here is another thing too. My setup is primarily ANALOG. Yea, I have most of the digital stuff, but when I track, I record to 2 synched 16 track MSR 16 tape machines. The only time I use the digital stuff is to dump the tracks to Reaper or other, for further processing or dumping to CD etc. I very seldom mix ITB. Frankly, I hate the sound of modern recordings. They all sound like they came from the same box. Can't put my finger on it though. And thats a whole nuther discussion. Suffice to say, I don't need this thing to keep the computer/fans quiet during recording, cause I never use it when I record.;)

Ok, all the fans are silent computer fans. They run off 12v from the computer itself, but I ran a wire from the 12v supply to a switch on the console. Really what I want is a computer operated temperature sensor and switching unit, but thats probably overkill. The green stuff is actually a very resiliant 2" thick foam, which I cut rectangle holes in for the fans and glued them with hotglue. Then I hotglued the foam to a piece of 1/8" thick ply, and in turn, applied a strip of 1/4" x 1/2" foam(it has adhesive preapplied on one side) weatherstripping to the back, and then used contact cement to apply it to the brown plenums. The plenums are all made from the same 1/8" ply, but you could make these from 1/8" white Artboard too. You can find it at any art store, maybe even Walmart. Frankly, I got a whole bag for free at my local art store. Its the cutoffs from mounting art for framing.

As to the cable chases. Well, thats a work in progress. First, I cut rectangle holes in the back to run the cables through, and figured I'd put a 2 piece wood cover around the cables and seal the cable holes with foam or whatever. That turned out to be a PITA.:rolleyes: Too many cables. So I modified the case, so I could run the cables out those holes in the bottom, glue some foam to the back, and when I fasten the back on, it sealed the small cable outlets. Much easier. Actually, if you saw the metal plates over the holes in the back, if push came to shove, I'd build a sealed box that all cables from the computers would terminate in, and in turn, the box would have connectors for every one on the computers. However, that is a MASSIVE undertaking, of which I doubt I'll ever do. No need at this point, but thats the idea. The metal plates would actually duplicate all the connections on the computers, thereby completely sealing the case. Talk about overkill.:D

So, thats the deal.
Anyway, hope that helps. Good luck with your project, and don't hesitate to ask questions.

Oh, yea, the drawing program is Sketchup. Its free from Google. Just download it. But frankly, its pretty easy to learn the basics, but I'm a detailer. So I've learned lots of stuff to make these jpgs come out this way. It won't happen overnight. Theres lots of tutorials on the net and the Sketchup forums. But even then, I have my own tricks. Ask me though, and I'll give you some clues. Btw, don't get in the habit of drawing objects as though they were just planes. Real objects have 3 dimensions. I draw EVERYTHING as if it were real. That means thickness. Thank goodness for one of Sketchups basic tools, which is called Push/Pull. Greatest 3d drawing tool ever invented.:D Makes modeling sooooooooo easy. But thats not to say it don't take time. Just easier.

Heres some assembly bics of the brown plenums.:) Btw, I'm a journey man millwork/cabinetmaker, so woodworking/building is pretty easy for me, and thats another reason I can draw this stuff. I became a detailer because I know how to build. Having a shop helps too.:D

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Here is the jig I built just for cutting the round holes. Took 3 times as long to build the jig than to machine the parts. But thats the name of the game if you want things to turn out right.
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Here is the assembly in the first few stages. Note the dadoes in the top and bottom to align the dividers.

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With dividers in place.

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Here is one of the parts after routing one hole.

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Here's the part after maching.

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Here's the part ready to glue to the partially finished plenum. Note the piece of OC 703 at the turn, for absorption.

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Here is the decoupling plates for the fans. Machined from the same jig.

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Here's the plates with the weatherstripping foam applied.

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Here's the masking for contact cement to adhere the decoupling plate to the plenum.

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I don't have any pics of the fan/foam assembly other than after installing.

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I know some people will roll their eyes. Too bad. Mines done, and like I said..it works MAHVALOUS DAHLING!

fitZ
 
Currently trying to beat SketchUp into submission. Have many more questions, but will wait until I have a half-way decent diagram going. Thanks for all the advice so far!
 
...or you could just put the computer in the adjacent room and get a long set of keyboard, mouse and video cables. :)
 
hmmmm thats odd, I posted a LONG tutorial on a few Sketchup techniques 4 hours ago..and its NOT here.:confused: I even previewed it before submitting.
Then checked to see it was here, which it was. I wonder what happened to it. UNLESS! I've been REMOVED from membership for being a dick.:rolleyes: Well, lets see if this sticks.
 
Well dang. the last one stuck, so I wonder what happened? Well, in that case, its a good thing I wrote it in notepad and saved it...except for a few last minute changes maybe. Ok, well, I'm going to RE POST it sans the changes. If something doesn't make sense, just point it out to me. I'm too tired to read it again and change things right now. Hell, it took 2 hours to write it and do the Sketchup thing.:rolleyes: Ok, here it is again..

...or you could just put the computer in the adjacent room and get a long set of keyboard, mouse and video cables.
DUH!, like if I had one I would have gone to this trouble. :rolleyes: btw, just out of curiosity,what would you say is the longest cables you can use without effecting anything? I'm no computer guru, and I've often wondered about that. I've seen some devices that use CAT 5 for long cable runs, but they were quite expensive at the time.

Currently trying to beat SketchUp into submission.
Good luck. Submission is one thing...total command is another:D


However, here are a few clues to help you make it "cooperate":D
Unfortunately, it is IMPOSSIBLE to give you a thourogh understanding of the basics within the scope of a short Forum reply, but here are a few insights.

First, Sketchup is a very intellegent drawing program.:D It automatically senses LOTS of things. You might read a BASIC tutorial at the Sketchup Forums first to undrstand the basic commands. However, heres a few tips.

First, go to WINDOW in the Command Bar. A prompt will appear with a list of items to select. At the bottom is "TEMPLATE". Select it and a field will appear on the right with a list of standard TEMPLATES. Scroll down till you see PRODUCT DESIGN AND WOODWORKING-INCHES. This is unless you are working in Metric units.;)

Now open a "new" file. You will now have a Template with "inches" as a "unit" to apply to a line or other entities. HOWEVER, now you need an EASY way to use FRACTIONS of an inch. This is where my background as a CAD detailer comes in. The easiest way to establish fractions, is with DECIMALS. However, this has a lot to do with the "PRECISION" preset as well.
For me, I draw as close to reality as I feel this precision is required. Which as a journeyman woodworker..is 1/32"..as a standard. To apply this "precision", go to WINDOW. At the top, select MODEL INFO. Scroll down to UNITS. A prompt will appear and at the to right is a field labled FORMAT. It should read "Fractional". Below is a field labled "Precision". Select 1/32".

The reason is simple. Sketchup will automatically assign a "pick point" according to your "precision" selection. What this means is, no matter where you pick a starting point for a line, it will automatically pick a point relative to your selection....ie...if 1/2" was your precision, it may actually pick a point in space DIFFERENT than where you want it to be.:eek: Believe me, you don't want that happening all over the place in a complex model. However, the more precice, the more memory it takes as Sketchup uses 14 decimal points to establish PRECISION in space.

Now, once you have a "precision" selected, now you have to USE this precision in a format that is easy. This is where DECIMALS as a command comes in...ie...dividing up 1", into 1/32" increments via a decimal. Here they are.
1/32 = .0937
1/16= .0625
1/8= .125
3/16 .1875
1/4= .125
5/16= .3125
3/8= .375
7/16= .4375
1/2= .5
9/16= .5625
5/8= .625
11/16= .6875
3/4= .75
13/16= .8725
7/8"= .875
15/16= .9375

You would have to add .03725 to any increment in 1/16ths, to get the value in decimals for those between the 1/16" increments. Frankly, I commited the list above to memory LONG AGO, and very rarily have to think in 1/32". It is the Precision applied that matters. I would suggest..IF, you plan on using Sketchup LONGTERM, and for lots of projects...commit the list to memory. Its much easier than looking them up every time.

Ok, once you have this concept in hand, now you can TELL the program what you want for lengths, widths, and heights. Unfortunately, applying decimals to ALL THREE COORDINATES for 3d drawing is a damn pain in the ass.:D This is why Sketchup is so intuitive as a 3d drawing tool. ie...you don't have to.:p What is important though, is understanding the COORDINATE system, their axis's and where in virtual space you want to draw. In reality, I very seldom have to pick a point in space verbatim, with no relationship to an entity. You will understand this soon enough.

To help understand this concept though, select the line tool. Hover the cursor over the "axis" orgin(0,0,0...or x,y,z) and it will "recognize" this point in space, as the three axis's meet at this point...ie..anytime two lines meet, Sketchup recognizes these points, as well as any point along a line. Select the "origin" as a "start point", and pull a line in any direction. Look down at the "length field" as you pull a line and it will display the LENGTH of the line.
Now, you can select any point in space to terminate the line, and it will display this lenth.

However, to TELL it the direction(or vector)of the line, and the distance, the easiest way is to understand Sketchup will AUTOMATICALLY show you a line PARALLEL with any of the three axis's, by moving the line around untill it becomes the same "color" as any of the three axis's "vectors"...ie..direction.
Once you find the "parallel" axis you want, simply allow the curser to stay there while you type in a DISTANCE. Say you wanted a line, 56 5/16" long, starting from any point in the X,Y plane, simply pick a point in space looking at the xy plane, pull the line till you see the color vector you want(ie..green, red, blue)Type 56.5625, hit enter..and voila! you have a line from the orgin, in the direction of the axis chosen, 56 5/16" long.:D If you picked green or red, t will DEFAULT the line on the XY plane automatically. If you picked BLUE, it would draw a VERTICAL line in the Z direction.

Ok, I'm sure you've played around with that already, but I have to start somewhere, right?:D



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NEXT...understand the GROUP command and the principle of coordinate axis's vs planes.

Pick the RECTANGLE command, and arbitrarily draw a rectangle in the DEFAULT GREEN/RED PLANE. It will ALWAYS draw a plane on the Green/Red plane..which is the X-Y plane at 0,0. The Blue axis is the Z axis..or height.

Now, RIGHT click on this rectangle and it will become "highlighted". RIGHT click on it again, and a prompt will come up with a list of commands. Pick.."make a GROUP". Do NOT use "make a Component" at this time. More on that later.

Tip...I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS, make a group of a 2d object in a plane.
This keeps it SEPERATE from other line "entities".

Now, once it is a group, you can "EDIT" the entity, to do various things like add lines, Push Pull, Offset etc. Or, you can do various things with the Group AS AN ENTITY, like Rotate, Scale, Move, Copy, or what ever.

The next thing is learning ROTATE. Very improtant to understand how the Sketchup Rotate icon works. First, it needs to know which AXIS PLANE you want it to Rotate in...ie...XY, XZ, or YZ...or any combination thereoff. For simple Three axis Rotations, I've made a "component", that I IMPORT into a model as required. This is made from 3 identical rectangles, placed into the 3 axis on the default plane, and moved to where I need it in the view.
Here is what it looks like. I use this daily in almost every session. Good tool, although once you become familiar with the Rotate tool, you will soon learn to tell it commands by using other entities within the model. Here is how to draw it in 3d.

First, pick the rectangle tool Pick a point on the ORGIN, and pull it in the Green/Red direction. Type 24,24 and hit enter. Voila. A rectangle on the X,Y Plane. Now, choose the "select" tool, and hover it over the rectangle Rght-click on the rectangle, and in the prompt that appears, click on SELECT..anothe list appears...choose ALL BOUNDARYS. Once chosen, the BORDERLINES, AND PLANE of the rectangle become highlighted. Now Right-click again and in the field that appears...select MAKE GROUP. Voila...now you have a 2d OBJECT.

Next, you need to pull a line from the ORGIN, in the BLUE direction, and type 24". Actually, as you pull the line in the Blue direction, Sketchup will remember your previous LENGTH commands, and automatically stop at that length. Just pull it slowly, and you will see. Once it stops there, or you type 24, hit enter. Voila. Now, pick the end of this line(not at the orgin) and pull a line in the GREEN direction. As you pull it, hover the curser(pencil) over the corner of the rectangle along the green axis. It will "recognize" this point as you return to pull the line along the PARALLEL green axis. A dotted "implied" length line will momentarily appear, when the line is the same length as the line in the rectangle...ie 24" long. Now left click, or type 24, either one. Now pick a point on this end of the previous line, and pull a line in the blue direction DOWNWARD to the corner of the rectangle and pick it. Then simply pull it back along the green axis's, towards the orgin, and pick this corner of the rectangle. VOILA! A NEW rectangle PLANE will appear in the GREEN/BLUE axis'. Pick on the plane, and repeat the set of commands to "make it a group". Once completed, you now have two planes.

Now, repeat this same set of commands in the RED direction. Youj will then have a TRI CORNER set of planes. Finally, do this. Select ONE plane. Hold down your CTRL key, and select the other two. Now make these three groups a COMPONENT, by Rightclicking on the highlighted groups, and when the prompt appears...simply select MAKE COMPONENT. Another prompt will appear. Fill in the field for the name...say TRI CORNER or such, hit the finish button, and VOILA! you now have a TRI CORNER ROTATE AXIS SELECTION TOOL!!
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Ok, I'm outta time now. My wife is screaming at me:eek::eek::rolleyes::D I'll be back for more tips later and how to use the Tri corner for rotating things.
fitZ

Once you have an "entity" in the model with the three basic planes, it becomes easier to rotate things on those axis's when you have very few objects in the model. Plus, it helps me illustrate the Rotate too.:D
 
...or you could just put the computer in the adjacent room and get a long set of keyboard, mouse and video cables. :)

Yeah...but why go the easy route when you can spend an innordinate amount time and effort building a "better" mouse trap.

I've seen plans for a 3-bedroom ranch w/2 baths that were less involved! ;)

Sometimes, having lots of power tools and a shop...works against your common sense...but we all need something to fill out our spare time with. :D
 
If it was even a question of drilling holes in walls and putting the computer in another room, believe me, that's exactly what I would do. However, as I may have mentioned in my first post (yup, I did), I'm looking to build a desk that serves a very precise and specific function. This is in a spare bedroom that I am trying to just get as much out of as possible without demolishing walls, building rooms-within-a-room, and all that jazz. Someday, when I have an actual studio, I'll come back here and ask advice on "how best can I put my computer in another room?" But today, I have questions on desks.

Thanks for that tutorial Rick! I'm going to try to work on the project some more this weekend, but the next few days are filled up.
 
I also built my own desk with side racks and the rest of the tabletop and the vertical racks...all on wheels…so I’m no stranger to that stuff.

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Anyway...if you look behind the chair and to the left of the lower reel-to-reel...that's my computer case…with the brown front. I have a huge tower in there along with additional external drive case, DVD burner, etc. It has a layer of high-density foam rubber (same stuff used by HVAC folks) all around inside...and there are small air-intake holes in front with a larger exhaust hole in back.

Unless you get right next to the case...you can't really hear the fans...and I have to say, this particular tower has some noisy fans! I have a new tower ready to swap in the near future...which is whisper-quiet to begin with.

Point being...you don't need to build massive HVAC structure. That's a lot of overkill, IMO...but I don't want to rain on Rick's parade, since he's convinced one must go that route.
I've not seen anyone else, in any studio, go that route…and people seem to get a lot of recording done WITH computers in the room.

I good standalone-case, or even an iso-case meant for computers and a fairly quiet computer is all you really need…but go with what you think is best.
 
...btw, just out of curiosity,what would you say is the longest cables you can use without effecting anything? I'm no computer guru, and I've often wondered about that. I've seen some devices that use CAT 5 for long cable runs, but they were quite expensive at the time.

Not sure. I've used a 5' extension on my moms computer once because she had some giant desk credensa thing and the cables wouldnt reach the desktop to the computer space.

I looked on Ebay and they had up to a 30' KVM extension cable, which is keyboard, video and mouse in one cable. Not sure what kind of trouble (if any) might be caused.

Just another option.
 
If it was even a question of drilling holes in walls and putting the computer in another room, believe me, that's exactly what I would do. However, as I may have mentioned in my first post (yup, I did), I'm looking to build a desk that serves a very precise and specific function. This is in a spare bedroom that I am trying to just get as much out of as possible without demolishing walls, building rooms-within-a-room, and all that jazz. Someday, when I have an actual studio, I'll come back here and ask advice on "how best can I put my computer in another room?" But today, I have questions on desks.

Thanks for that tutorial Rick! I'm going to try to work on the project some more this weekend, but the next few days are filled up.

Nice on the smart ass reply. :) My point was, if you have a bedroom or basement studio with another room already adjacent, then making a small hole in the wall, running a cable through and sitting the machine on the other side would be a simple option. Personally, my computer doesnt make enough noise for me to even worry about it. Its sitting under the desk.

Anyway... the only helpful advise I can offer would be that a larger and slower moving fan for your case would be a better option as compared to smaller, faster moving fans. i.e. for the same volume of air, you'd be better off with slower moving air, since the noise created by fans and fast air movement is what you are trying to defeat in the first place.

btw, 88 Fingers Louie is one of my all-time favorite bands. Post up pics of your solution...
:cool:
 
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