Building a Control Room Check it out!

[pandamonk]

Hi Pandamonk. Well, John Sayers builds these kind of assemblies all the time. Its called an INSIDE OUT wall. Its STILL two leaves with the studs on the outside of one wall. This allows for insulation in the exposed side to be used as absorption...but I'd suggest using 703 or Rockwool vs standard batt insulation.

That all depends on your existing or planned floor? If you have a COMMON floor OR ceiling, or any other assembly like a wall..ie, one that is structurally tied to the two spaces, then yea...under some circumstances. In the case of a slab, maybe...in the case of a wood diaphram floor...I don't think it would make a difference that much as the whole membrane acts as one if these are simply partition walls(ie..in the middle of the floor joist span) If its a bearing wall, then the wall may set on a beam/girder that has floor joists which in that case may act as 2 different membranes...although, structural transmission of impact noise as well as vibration may occur simultaneously...which in my mind negates the use of U-boats. However, my disclaimer is in FULL force here.

Pandamonk, these kind of issues are ALWAYS difficult to analyse from a distance, in general, and solutions are usually case specific depending on all the other existing and proposed assemblies as well...ie...WEAK LINK syndrome. For successful TL as a whole, the COMPLETE PACKAGE has to be designed to work together. Simply assigning one solution for one assembly may be at risk of failure should you not address any others...ie..use of U-Boat Iso decoupling may fail to reach its potential when a HOLLOW CORE door is placed in the wall.

Ah, great to know he builds them. How effective are they? Yeh of course i'd use 703 or Rockwool

Right I'll tell you my idea: I'm planning (just in my head atm) on building decent iso booths, something like this, for use in all different environments. I plan for them to be a two leaf system all round(floor, walls and ceiling), with double doors and no windows. I will obviously include ventilation, lighting, power supply and audio cables.

 

[pandamonk]

Let me answer this.

Personally, monitoring in headphones sucks. You can't tell WHAT the ROOM is doing to the sound...ie...COMB FILTERING. Headphones lie. PERIOD. If you can't differentiate what is happening in the headphones, you can't tell what is being recorded in TRUTH.

And under some circumstances, once the recording is made..its TOO LATE to fix it in the mix.

With good TL, good monitors, appropriate geometry, and GREAT TREATMENT, even small rooms will sound good under most circumstances. The point here is to KNOW and trust your monitors and room...other wise TRANSLATION may suffer. Even if you have a isolated control room, if the COMB FILTERING in the control room MASKS the comb filtering in the studio or if modal resonances occur louder in the control room...you will make EQ mistakes or misjudgments. And there are more issues as well. Too many to address here.

However, this is just my opinion, as many successful recordings are made in one room. I think its GOOD EARS that make the difference.

I very much agree!

 

[Bguzaldo]

You can't be serious?! A 4 leaf system is terrible! Removing the two inner leafs will significantly INCREASE isolation!

The on in the diagram all the way on the Right? Thats the Worst one?! Rod Lied to me! I read a book and that's what it suggested!!!?

 

[Bguzaldo]

Pandamonk is dead on as far as 4 leaves are concerned. Hindsight is 20/20 but the info has been here for at least 6 years that I know of. However, he might be wrong because of this:



If you mean you built a DOUBLE wall, with ONE leaf of 2 layers of drywall on the outside face of each wall, then you do NOT have four leaves, you only have two..which is good. However, if you mean you drywalled BOTH faces of each of the double wall frames...then indeed you have a 4 leaf system..not good.



It never ceases to amaze me how many people come here AFTER they build iso assemblies that DON'T do what they thought they would do.

Although, you may have flanking paths that could undermine the BEST Transmission Loss you could build in a wall. Like a coupled floor, common ducts, common exterior walls etc. All must work together or you have the dreaded weak link syndrome...which if this is any indication...



then doing this may be a waste of mass, time and money...
...especially if you just built a 4 leaf wall system to put them in...ie..why put in a double door system with a possible TL rating of 52 if your wall system is a weak link with a TL rating of 43 or your window sytem TL only reaches 39?(hypothetical TL ratings)

Please don't think I'm trying to rain on your parade here though. It sounds as though you've thought this through and may have succeeded. The proof is when you TEST your TL.....ie....at what frequency/SPL will your ISO break down? In other words, what frequency will "cut through like a hot knife through butter?" That is the question.

It appears I was misinformed...or just read the terms the wrong way. I have 2 leaves...I have 4 sheets of dry wall 2 layers on the outside of each wall

Don't worry about raining on my Parade I'm just glad you're helping out I really appreciate it. I get drilled a lot here because I kinda suck in general

Thanks for the help and criticizm,
-Barrett

 

[Bguzaldo]

What are you planning in terms of treating the CR and the live room? Right now I see a couple pieces of closed cell foam...now that you've changed the shape, size and TL rating of both rooms, you're dealing with *completely* different acoustic environments. The increasing in TL is going to demand a more thorough job of treating both spaces.

Frank

I have about 8 old frames for when I started to build some bass traps and I'm just gonna finish those with some 703 and burlap and try to get the reflection points and most of the corners covered and then see what else my room demands. Obviously some ceiling absorbers as well...Is the ad for that room pack I always see in Tape Op any good, I forget which brand it was again...

Thanks,
-Barrett

 

[Bguzaldo]

Let me answer this.

Personally, monitoring in headphones sucks. You can't tell WHAT the ROOM is doing to the sound...ie...COMB FILTERING. Headphones lie. PERIOD. If you can't differentiate what is happening in the headphones, you can't tell what is being recorded in TRUTH.

And under some circumstances, once the recording is made..its TOO LATE to fix it in the mix.

With good TL, good monitors, appropriate geometry, and GREAT TREATMENT, even small rooms will sound good under most circumstances. The point here is to KNOW and trust your monitors and room...other wise TRANSLATION may suffer. Even if you have a isolated control room, if the COMB FILTERING in the control room MASKS the comb filtering in the studio or if modal resonances occur louder in the control room...you will make EQ mistakes or misjudgments. And there are more issues as well. Too many to address here.

However, this is just my opinion, as many successful recordings are made in one room. I think its GOOD EARS that make the difference.

Thank you, I was going to attempt to say this and fail before I noticed that you have addressed this already.

I'm apparently in the hole already on this thread, and trying to disprove why I did all this work for (seemingly) nothing would have been very hard for me.

Thanks,
-Barrett

 

[RawDepth]

I have about 8 old frames for when I started to build some bass traps and I'm just gonna finish those with some 703 and burlap and try to get the reflection points and most of the corners covered and then see what else my room demands. Obviously some ceiling absorbers as well...Is the ad for that room pack I always see in Tape Op any good, I forget which brand it was again...

Thanks,
-Barrett

I don't know what room pack you speak of. If it is open cell foam, (like that egg crate foam,) then it is good for mids and highs, but not too great for controlling lows. Panels that are 1" to 3" thick at the early reflection points and sprinkled lightly throughout the remaining empty wall space will help reduce flutter echo and comb filtering in small rooms. Just don't go overboard with them or the room will become too dead.

For lows you should consider covering all corners with 705 (denser than 703) or mineral wool, with air space behind all.

 

[pandamonk]

The on in the diagram all the way on the Right? Thats the Worst one?! Rod Lied to me! I read a book and that's what it suggested!!!?

No the one on my diagram to the right is the BEST one, but is not a 4 leaf structure. It is 2 leaf. But regardless of this, it looks like you created a flanking path in the door/window.

 

[miroslav]

Let me answer this.

Personally, monitoring in headphones sucks. You can't tell WHAT the ROOM is doing to the sound...ie...COMB FILTERING. Headphones lie. PERIOD. If you can't differentiate what is happening in the headphones, you can't tell what is being recorded in TRUTH.

And under some circumstances, once the recording is made..its TOO LATE to fix it in the mix.

With good TL, good monitors, appropriate geometry, and GREAT TREATMENT, even small rooms will sound good under most circumstances. The point here is to KNOW and trust your monitors and room...other wise TRANSLATION may suffer. Even if you have a isolated control room, if the COMB FILTERING in the control room MASKS the comb filtering in the studio or if modal resonances occur louder in the control room...you will make EQ mistakes or misjudgments. And there are more issues as well. Too many to address here.

However, this is just my opinion, as many successful recordings are made in one room. I think its GOOD EARS that make the difference.

No one is talking about always *monitoring* with headphones, rather just use them during the record portion so your monitors are not on and bleeding into the one-room area. I usually monitor with my ears, and since I already know my room before the start of a sessions, there's no need for me to analyze it every time I record…IOW, I’ve already “monitored” the sound in the room before I hit record.

But here’s a different perspective...
How bad is your monitoring and mixing going to sound doing it in a small, boxed-in control room?
I would rather deal with headphones just during the tracking...since the tracking sessions are setup using my ears during the basic/initial sound-checks before I start recording, and I know the sound I am capturing.
In a small-box control room, odds are pretty good that the "room" (as in control room) is going to be lying to you anyway….and THAT small room is where you will be making all your critical decisions. It's very hard getting an accurate response in a small room.
Not to mention...it gets pretty stuffy in a small control room with the gear in there.

Granted...a seprate contorl room is the proper way to go...IF you have the space for a nice size tracking room and a nice size contorl room. But if not, for my money...one larger room worlks much better than two smaller rooms...both for tracking and for mixing.

But hey...everyone has their perspectives, so by all means, go with what seems best.