brian another shielding question!

kristian

New member
Im in the process of maybe buying a 50 foot snake cable by belden. But my problem is its 8750, if you search that on the http://www.belden.com site then it brings up the info. there is no page i can gie the link for the info sorry. I dont understand totaly whats going on. The guy says its 27 pair cable. Does this mean 27 channel? its 22AWG(i know that one!)but how do you fit 27 channels into 22AWG? and its unshielded. My problem is, what and how could i shield it? i think its probably worth it, because on 50 feet or 27 channel cable i think the RF interference could be noticeable. i dont know am i going insane.. im confused! thanks.
 
Ok,i did some more research on this thing its not shielded allegedly because its for installation. I odnt know why you wouldnt want a shield, but ok, i that that lost me interest. Also i think all 27 pairs of wires are carried through a 22AWG wire, that ddidnt impress me, i could just be ignorant. but if any of you want this guys email address, its a 50 foot 27 channel snake for $60. its just the excess they ahve laying around.
 
kristian said:
Im in the process of maybe buying a 50 foot snake cable by belden. But my problem is its 8750, if you search that on the http://www.belden.com site then it brings up the info. there is no page i can gie the link for the info sorry. I dont understand totaly whats going on. The guy says its 27 pair cable. Does this mean 27 channel? its 22AWG(i know that one!)but how do you fit 27 channels into 22AWG? and its unshielded. My problem is, what and how could i shield it? i think its probably worth it, because on 50 feet or 27 channel cable i think the RF interference could be noticeable. i dont know am i going insane.. im confused! thanks.

First of all, if you got an unshielded cable you'd be in a world of hurt. Second, 22AWG is really small, so I don't know why you don't think it would fit. That would be about an inch and a half around though just because it's 27 pair. The bigger the number in AWG the smaller the wire. The smaller the number the bigger the wire. So 2AWG is HUGE, and 22AWG is really small.
Does it mean 27 channel? Yeah I guess. Belden makes communication cable, so more than likely this cable was made for computer comm. If you hooked this up as a snake you're be hitting yourself and yelling bad words... "Why didn't I get one with a &%$#@ shield???" :) You'd really be surprised what a shield will do.
We use Belden cable at the place I work... like I said I'm an electronics technician. Well, we were having a problem making something communicate and I started looking into why, and I found the shield was not connected. I told one guy this was the problem and he said "no way, a shield doesn't make that much of a difference." So I hooked the shield up and it worked fine. I asked him, "why do you think Mr. Shield (I just made that Mr. Shield part up) invented the shield in the first place?" It's because what they had sucked. Tons of interference, it sounded like crap if you used it for instruments or mics... So, if you ask me if I would get what you're talking about, I'd say no :)
 
Shielding

Shielding is very important in draining off any unwanted noise from cables. In the oilfield we use numerous transducers. The proper way to do this is have the shield grounded at one end only. Usually at the source end. If this shield goes to ground on both ends of the cable it is probably worse than no shield at all. Am presently looking into building my own cables, but am not really sure if #16 cable is large enough? Maybe someone can tell me? Am a newbie in the recording environment, and can use any help you guys can give me. Maybe I can build you some cables at a very modest price. I can get my hands on shielded cable for next to nothing. The cable I can get has a shield around each pair. Does the shield need to be around each conductor?
 
Re: Shielding

Yeah, only connect the shield on one end. If you connect it on both ends it's bad. I havn't done research into why it's bad, I just know it's bad :)

I can get cable for pretty cheap too, but it probably wouldn't be the quality I want in my studio. I've come to realize that cable just isn't cable, and all cable wasn't created equal. I don't know if this is spelled correctly, but my friend got some Georgell (?) cables for his instrument. We did a test to see just how much better they are than regular instrument cables, because they were about 4 times as expensive. We plugged in an old cable and played for a minute, then very quickly plugged in the new cable, and it was like night and day! It's amazing how much the new cable didn't color the sound.

I don't know what the difference is, but that's why some people do research and development, and I buy things.
 
Brian Grey wrote: "I havn't done research into why it's bad, I just know it's bad".

It can be bad because it can allow the creation of a ground loop. This basically turns the path through the shield of your cable, and the return path through the safety grounds of the equipment, into a huge transformer winding consisting of 1 turn that is shorted out. If there are any stray magnetic fields around (and there always are, as any guitarist who uses single-coils can tell you...), the stray magnetic field will induce current to flow in that shorted loop, and that unwanted shield current will couple noise into your signal conductors.

Chasing ground loops is one of the more time-consuming jobs involved in getting a studio up and running, and is one of the reasons that transformer-coupld equipment is sometimes regarded as "easier" to work with: the coupling transformer floats the ground reference for you, and with proper equipment design can help prevent the formation of a loop to begin with. This rapidly gets into a lot of equipment and circuit design issues, but the bottom line is that there should only be one ground reference for the whole rig, to the extent possible. Ground stuff in two places and connect them with a shielded cable that has both ends of the shield connected, and you're shipping noise along with your signal (or, in the oilfield, lightning and magnetic storm currents, which can _really_ get your attention)...

Intune wrote: "Does the shield need to be around each conductor" for shielded pair? The answer is very definitely no. Shielded pair used for our kind of balanced signal transmission needs a single common shield around both conductors to work properly. The whole idea of "balanced" is that both conductors experience the *exact* same electrical and noise environment (which is also why they are so precisely twisted, in good cable). Balanced transmission drives one conductor with one polarity (pin2 swings positive) and the other with the exact inverse of that signal (pin 3 swings negative). This allows the receving equipment to look at the difference between the signals on the pair (differential mode), and reject any signal that is identical on both conductors (common mode).

Here's gross oversimplification. Just for grins, imagine a balanced line that has a signal that just happens to be exactly +500mv on pin 2 and -500mv on pin 3 at some point in time. Imagine that that line runs right under a computer monitor, whose mondo deflection magnets induce +3v of noise in both the pin 2 and pin 3 lines. The receiving equipment subtracts the voltage on pin 3 from the voltage on pin 2: ((500mv signal + 3v noise) - (-500mv signal + 3v noise)). This leaves 1v of signal (500mv - (-500mv)), and 0v of noise (3v - 3v): the noise cancels itself out because it is *common* to both signals, and the equipment only cares about differential.

If you shield the conductors separately, their electrical environments will not be identical, and differentially-coupled noise allowed by the imbalance will become impossible to distinguish from the signal you're trying to send. In our example above, that might be 2.8v of noise on pin 2, and 3.1v of noise on pin 3. Whammo: you now have 0.3v of differential noise that gets added to your 1v differential signal, and there's no way to know which is which. No joy. Gotta make the environment as identical as possible for best noise rejection.

The rejection is never perfect for a whole boatload of reasons, which is why we still have to chase ground loops out. However, balanced signal transmission is a *vast* improvment over single-ended... And we didn't even need to talk about impedance (or any of that other jit that plastic-pocket-protector folks like me love so much) to get a basic handle on why. Hope that helps.

That 8750 27-pair cable is unshielded intrumentation and control cable. It's not what you want for any kind of serious audio work, so it is good that you passed on it. It'd be pretty much at home in an oilfield, though...
 
#16 is freakin' _huge_ for most signal purposes. I have never used anything bigger than 20awg for any patch bay and signal routing I've ever done. For runs of less than 500', I personally prefer 22awg in most cases. Right now, I'm slowly using up a 1000' spool of Belden 8762, which is 20awg. It's bigger than I need, but the price was right...

Larger conductors don't buy you much, unless you have a specific reason to go with them (such as reduction of microphonic cable noise, for a cable that gets beat up during recording, or something else equally odd). Smaller conductors may package better, and may be easier to get onto a patchbay frame (putting 52 runs of 22awg individual pairs onto a Switchcraft frame gives you a bundle about 1.5" diameter coming off the end...).

Most mic snakes are 22-24awg. Some mic snakes go clear down to 26awg, but IMHO they tend to be excessively fragile and exhibit more handling noise. 22-24awg should be perfectly fine for just about anything you'll do in a project studio.
 
Back
Top