Bedroom Studio :-O

thepentium

New member
Hey guys

This forum rocks! I just found it this morning, and the more I see, the more I like.

I've got a question for you guys.
I'm a teenager, not yet out of highschool. So, all the space I have to work with is my bedroom, and my closet, which is covered in foam. Here's what I have set up so far:

http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/thepentium/Dsc00127.jpg
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/thepentium/Dsc00128.jpg
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/thepentium/Dsc00129.jpg
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/thepentium/Dsc00133.jpg
The computer lab:
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/thepentium/Dsc00130.jpg
and the "live room" :P
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/thepentium/Dsc00131.jpg
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/thepentium/Dsc00132.jpg

Equipment is as follows:
Custom built athlon 64 audio editing system
cheapie Midi/analog keyboard
Behringer 12 channel mixer (UB1204FX Pro)
Fender Telecaster
Dean Jazzmaster
boom stand(the mic isnt even worth mentioning)

Speakers:
Ive got several different ones because I like to see how a finished product sounds on different levels of audio systems.
I've got a creative 4.1 system, a roland CS-10 monitor, two KLH bookshelf speakers, and another home made 2.1 system.

I WAS using the KLH speakers as the main monitors until someone needed the amp I was using. Now Im stuck with the creative 4.1 system. I need to know what kind of changes I should make to my set up for best recording... right now Im recording vocals in the closet and its kind of a pain. Any way I can set up my room to stop the ugly echo in my recordings? Also what should I do as far as my speakers are concerned? The 4.1 really isnt cutting it. The KLHs were doing a good job but I need a new amp. Should I invest in an amp, or buy some new monitors?

Like I said earlier, Im just a teenager and have a very small budget. So if I go by way of getting a new amp, it'll probably be some used reciever or something. If you guys have any that you're selling or getting rid of let me know.



Thanks, you guys rock
~Pentium


I forgot to mention, on the computer I have cakewalk music creator and Acid Music 3.0
 
Like I said earlier, Im just a teenager and have a very small budget. So if I go by way of getting a new amp, it'll probably be some used reciever or something. If you guys have any that you're selling or getting rid of let me know.

Hello Pentium, welcome to the board. Hey, for a teenager you've doing great.
Say, I've got a couple of cool old tube recievers I was going to sell on ebay cheap, but doubt if they would sell. If your interested, I'll give you one, but you'd have to pay shipping. Let me know. One is a cool ole black face harmon kardon reciever. I even used it as a control room guitar amp. I ran stereo outputs from an ART FX to the pre-in on the amp. Also used it as a headphone output feed. The other is a modern Mitsubishi, but the receiver portion is burned out. Amp works fine. I do have this weird old slantface reciever like I've never seen before. Looks like a startup company that didn't make it, but I'l be damned if this thing doesn't kick butt. Must be 50watts. Transistor though. Anyway, let me know. PM me and I'll send you a pic if your interested. BTW, it took me 30 years to get a studio together, and I STILL ain't finished :rolleyes: . Wish I had access to what is available now, when I was your age. I see your a telecaster man. Cool. I played one for years. Wish I still had one, but Strats are my guitar of choice now.
Ok, for what it is worth, here is a few things "I" would do in your room. Without a drawing of your room it's kind of hard, and I realize this is a bedroom too, but if I were you, I'd make the engineering and monitoring position the priority in the room. In picture #2, I'd take all that stuff off the wall, and center the desk between those sidewalls. Those shelves right above your computer monitor form a resonant box, that will change the sound in your monitoring position. Setup all your monitors on a raised shelf on the desk to form an equalateral triangle between your monitors and ears. This should widen your stereo field to better hear the stereo image. Don't put your speakers right in the corners. Once you have this wall clear, it will be ready for treatment. Some people suggest that walls covered with stuff like this creates diffusion. Well, maybe, but it would be better on the back wall, as you need to balance this wall for near field monitoring, which means placing broadband absorbers across the front corners, and behind your computer monitor. Your speaker location will be determined by your equalateral triangle, but we may have to alter it a bit for better response. More on that later.
I would try to find some large HEAVY curtains for those windows, as they are highly reflective. This could cause flutter echos between them and the opposite wall. Most people try to set up rooms so their monitoring position is in a RELATIVELY REFLECTION FREE ZONE, as reflections smear your perception of the direct sound. The first reflections are called early reflections and come off of the front wall as it is closest to your ears. Also off of the adjacent side walls. To combat these, you need to absorb the reflections or direct them toward the rear wall. In your case, absorption is the only avenue. So I have a suggestion. Forget foam. Have you ever heard of RIGID FIBERGLASS INSULATION? It has qualitys that make for excellent absorption. Owens Corning makes a product labled "703" that works great. Cheap too. If I were you, before I invested in a piece of new gear, I'd buy this stuff because it would be your next best investment for your space. It comes in various thickness, 2'x4' panels, and runs about $1 per sq foot per 1" thickness, average. You can call around to insulation suppliers and see if anyone has this for sale retail. There are other products, but this one is common. I would TRY to get as many of these panels as you can afford, but 12 would work great. Also try to get it as thick as you can afford, 4" being the best, as a resistance absorber such as these, work on a principle which I won't explain now, but suffice to say, the thicker the panel, the lower the bandwidth of absorption. I'll tell you where and how to mount these if and when you purchase them. I know your budget is VERY limited. I was a teenager once too :D Maybe have a yard sale and sell everything you don't really need :p The next area of concern is the ceiling above your monitoring position, and the rear wall. But I'm out of time now, and now for my disclaimer. I am NO expert. And if anyone else cares to offer their opinions contrary to mine, so be it. These are common solutions found here all the time. I still think they are better than what you have at the moment. So that being said, have a great thanksgiving, and I'll be back later.

fitZ :)
 
Amps, sound waves

:p hey pent! hows it going? Anyways, I too need some help with my room.. its quite odd shaped and the sound in it is weird. I have a 3 stepped corner and all the bass seems to collect in the smallest corner and thus shaking the house apart.

my equiptment is as follows:

Fisher Studio Standard ca 857 receiver/amp with 5 band EQ, 100 watts RMS per channel.

Marantz SP-1200 floor speakers, 25hz - 20khz resp, 165 watts RMS each cab.

Creative 5.1 system, 115 watts.

custom midi processing pc for band use,pentium 3 1ghz,384 mb of ram,10 gig hard drive :P,dvd rom, cdrom, soundblaster live 5.1 card, ACID Pro 4.0, Magix music maker.

My room is weird as I said, I have some pictures if you need to see them to help me out. I would like to get the responce as flat as possible so that nothing is enhanced or decreased , truest to the original form. My room has 2 outside windows and 2 inside ones, as well as 3 doors ( and a garage door that is soon to be removed)
any help would be much appreciated.
I am also into electronics, and building amplifiers. I would like also to restore an old vintage tube amp ( marantz, fisher, mcintosh,rca,hk,altec lancing (voice of the theatre) or some other decent known brand), but would like to do it for under 50 dollars. Seeing as how collectors drive the prices sky high on these wonderful amps, and I am yet another teenager as old as pent with a limited budget too, I was wondering if any of you have any ideas. I would love to have a mono block all tube amp, cage and chassis style, with at least 30-50 watts RMS power, so i can decently power a 100 watt cab. Plus, they just look so derned cool! :D I have been looking on ebay for a while, so far nothing has captured my attention, and the ones that do do not state the wattage, which is probably quite low.

thans ever so much!

TheMostFearedKeyboardist~

position: keyboardist/sound processor EternalTheorem.
 
Hello TMFK, welcome to the board too. Say, you will get a better response if you post your own thread. That way things don't get confusing. I see it happen all the time, but you will get more answers if everyone sees your OWN thread heading.

fitZ
 
Awesome

Hey thanks a lot for the quick reply!

I'll definately try what you have suggested. The problem is that the "computer lab" you saw is a wall mounted countertop, so I can't really move the desk. However, I think I'm going to sell my 19" monitor, and get a flat screen instead. That way I can put my speakers evenly on the desk. The problem is that wall on the right. Do you think having the desk unevenly positioned on the wall will mess up the mix too badly?


Yeah I'm a telecaster man.. its a '96 mexican tele'... Im not too experienced in guitar yet, so I bought it used for $200. Sounds great regardless.


Will post more in a couple minutes....
 
ok thanks! I will start a seperate thread for the amps, but id like to kinda hang around this one if its ok, so I can read what you guys have to say about the studio setups.. Im kinda having the same problem, and my room is a really weird shape. Also,my creative sub.. it well.. stinks! Its a 22 watt RMS 5 1/4 inch he woofer, I had a 17 watt RMS 5 1/4 inch by creative once that did better than this one. I am thinking it might be my room? I have it in the corner, but when you leave the corner you can't hear the bass hardly and you certainly can't feel it like the other one. Another interesting note..the other one had a smaller cab. I beleive my room is just strange , and I'd like to know if the sub being placed in the hutch area of my room, the smallest of the steps might be causeing something. Thanks for any help! I will get some pictures soon , so you can tell me how to calculate my rooms responce , then ill leave you guys alone :p
thanks,

TheMostFearedKeyboardist~
 
Yeah I'm a telecaster man.. its a '96 mexican tele'... Im not too experienced in guitar yet, so I bought it used for $200. Sounds great regardless.

Hello again Pentium. I've got some musical advice for you. DON"T get in the habit of just learning others guitar licks. The BEST advice I could possibly give you is to learn THE 60 CHORD SYSTEM from the git go. That is, if you want to be a musician instead of just a guitarist. I guarantee, if a
you get a handle on that, and then the scales, you will be WAAAAAAAAAAAY ahead of the game. Believe me. I played for 18 yrs before someone turned me on to it. If you are interested, I'll PM you some stuff. It's very hard at first because not only do you have to practice with your fingers, you have to practice with your MIND too. Do you have any teachers? Most guitarists I have met over the years were LAZY. They didn't WANT to work at it, only play blues licks, over and over and over. Same ole licks to every song. But, to each his own I guess. Not that ALL guitarists are lazy. Some actually DO become REAL musicians :rolleyes:
Ok, about the desk.
The problem is that wall on the right. Do you think having the desk unevenly positioned on the wall will mess up the mix too badly?
Yes, bass build up in the corner will fool you. So will your stereo image. Monitoring should be done in a symetrical location. What is on one side, should be equal on the opposite. Otherwise, reflections, absorption, and diffusion will alter your perception of the stereo field. Nulls in the
are the primary cause of loss of bass in respect to your ears. If your ears or the speakers are in a null of some frequency, no matter how much EQ you apply, it will NOT improve. More on that later. I'll post some links too as soon as I can.
Studio monitors are another thing. Most consumer type and computer type speakers have a bass boost, and are not NEAR as flat in response as Studio monitors. So that will fool you too. MANY things will fool you. The point is to have a monitoring situation that is neutral as you can get, so you can hear the truth of your recordings. More importantly is that the room not fool you. If it adds coloration, so will your judgement, then when played in another room, it too adds coloration and you won't know what to trust. When you finally DO get the room corrected(to a point), the speaker and engineering position located correctly, and your mic'ng techniques improved, then you must LEARN your speakers. Once you can trust your monitoring, then translation on another system should sound pretty much the same, as MOST home systems on average have the same dynamics, and so do the rooms, although all are different. One of the best places to test your recordings is in a car too. Playback in a car is excellent, because of the absorpsion,
little or nothing to hold bass in, and curved surfaces that do not allow for the same reflection patterns as a rectangular room. But alas, my disclaimer stands firm regarding all of this. ;) It is simply my opinions. However, I think that it is pretty much standard advice around here.

but id like to kinda hang around this one if its ok, so I can read what you guys have to say about the studio setups.. Im kinda having the same problem, and my room is a really weird shape. Also,my creative sub.. it well.. stinks! Its a 22 watt RMS 5 1/4 inch he woofer, I had a 17 watt RMS 5 1/4 inch by creative once that did better than this one. I am thinking it might be my room? I have it in the corner, but when you leave the corner you can't hear the bass hardly and you certainly can't feel it like the other one.

Hey TMFK, these replys are for EVERYBODY to read. You can hang all you want :D
Guys, bass in small rooms IS the grandaddy of their acoustical problems. At least some of them. I'm no expert on this stuff, but let me try and explain some things as I understand them. Someone may contridict it, which is good. That way I learn what I've misunderstood too.
The dimensions of a room, have EVERYTHING in the world to do with BASS. This is because low frequency wavelengths that are comparable to the dimensions of the room create problems. There are TONS of books written on these subjects but I'll try to summarize some things in a VERY simplistic way.
First, imagine a sound outdoors. The sound leaves the source never to return, unless some obstical is in its path. And unless there is, the only reflection is from the earth. And if this is covered with snow, it is difficult to hear someone 20 or so feet away because snow is such a great absorber. Play music outdoors and it sounds thin, depending on adjacent reflective objects. Hence the use of a dome, or other type of reflector above and behind the musicians to reflect the energy out into the audience. However, when you hear bass, it sounds natural and tight, not boomy or overinflated. Thats because there is nothing for it to RESONATE. Bass frequencys in a car do the same thing, because they ESCAPE. Thats why recorded music sounds so good in a car. Nothing to RESONATE.
Now lets look at a room. In a standard rectangular room you have three sets of parallel surfaces. When the air between these parallel surfaces is excited by a source, such as a speaker, a resonance can occur between each of these parallel surfaces at a fundamental frequency determined by the speed of sound, and the dimension between these surfaces. This is because it is a "resonant" system, consisting of a boundary-air-boundary. Just as a pipe has a resonant system, rooms do too. These fundamental resonances are called "standing waves". A trail of other resonances called modes, tag along with the fundamental, at discrete intervals, defined by time and distance.
To add further confusion, there are three types of modes too but I won't delve into this though. Suffice to say, the rooms dimensions have a great deal of influence on the response of the room. It is the rooms LENGTH,WIDTH and HEIGHT dimensions that tell us what the modal frequencys are, and how closely spaced they are. They also tells us which frequencies are the problem frequencies, as resonance is a problem. This is why. Closely spaced modes BOOST the response of the room when IN phase, and CANCEL when OUT of phase. Among other things, these boosts and cancellations are what fools your ears into making incorrect EQ and volume adjustments. And since modes terminate in the corners of rooms, mixing at the intersection of two walls is the worst place you can do it. That is why you hear bass in the corner, only to have it disappear when you walk away. However, this is not the only place this occurs. Cancellation nodes are called nulls, and if your speakers, or head is in one of these nulls, no amount of eq will help you. Not only that, since standing waves appear between ALL 3 sets of parallel surfaces, this means there are NULLS front to back, side to side, and top to bottom.
There are so many of these modes, that correct identification of their spacing is time consuming, but the development of special computer spreadsheet programs to ease data entry and calculation have surfaced. Some of which I can link to. However, for my little explaination, here is the ramifications. IF, a musical note falls in between widely spaced modes, it will sound very weak, and will decay faster than other notes, as though it were outside, and the others were indoors. When music is played, MANY of these notes frequencies can be affected by the rooms dimensions. That is why absorption becomes your friend, but only if used correctly. A carpet on the floor does nothing for absorption of horizontal Axial modes. But like I said, I'm certaninly no expert.
Now, modes are only the beginning. To complicate things more, we have many other things that constitute the acoustics of a room. For example, reverberation time.

In a room, you have multiple reflection boundarys. Walls, floors, ceilings, furniture etc. IF, these boundarys were made of a highly reflective surface, such as tile, these reflections could last for many seconds. Look at a cathedral. Sounds reflect off of stone, and since little is absorbed, the energy is reflected over and over and over. And distance between these surfaces lengthens the time it takes to reflect again. If these reflections coincide with a direct sound such as speech, intelligibility suffers.
However, even a highly reflective surface will absorb some of this energy as will distance through air, and over time, the sound energy decays. It is this decay that characterizes the sound in the room. When a sound decays, it does so over time, and when it decays 60 db, this time is called the RT-60. IF a person slaps their hands together, and it takes 1.5 seconds for the sound to decay 60db, the RT-60 is 1.5. Understand? Usually, a "live room" is labeled as such because of a long RT-60 compared to that of a typical control room. The desirability for long reverb times for music, depends on the type of music, although some reverb is usually desirable for most music. RAP is not one of those types though, as it is based on speech, NOT PITCH.
Conversly, a control room will have a shorter RT-60, as long reverberation times will alter the perception of the direct sound being monitored, which results in unusually dry recordings. Which of course is subjective, yet the point of monitoring correctly, is to hear the RT-60 in the studio, not in the control room. Same with reflections. A control room SHOULD have a TIME DELAY GAP, longer than in the studio. Otherwise you cannot percieve the reflections picked up by the microphone correctly. This is the trouble with recording in the same room as the the monitors. How can you correctly hear what you are recording, if the speakers are in the same room as a mic. Impossible. That is the point of a seperate control room. Therefore, all you can do is wear headphones, and guess. Home recording enthusiasts who have the luxury of a seperate control room have other problems though. Like paying for it :D

BTW, when you speak or sing, your voice is produced by standing waves in your throat. When you pluck a guitar string, a standing wave between the nut and the bridge is formed along the string. When you blow a horn, a standing wave is set up in within the horn. An organ pipe also uses a standing wave to produce sound. So you see, not all standing waves are bad. :D

Ok guys, hope this helps a bit. I'll be back. Remember my disclaimer though. This is for general info only, not an acoustics lecture as I am NOT an acoustician by any stretch of the imagination. And is subject to correction by the real deal. :p
fitZ
 
Thanks for the help fitz2!

Makes sense. Hey I'm definately interested in those amps as well, check you PMs.


... Yeah I spend most of my time trying to write my own music instead of learning licks. Yes I'll take any info you can give me! I have an instructor but he's been kind of weak on the theory, so I started taking piano lessons as well to make up for it... It's helped a lot, but I want to learn all that I can.

Lemme tell you something, I've only been playing for like a year and a half. But I've been learning at such a quick pace that I play with other guys who have been playing for three years+ no problem. I'm very self-motivated, so if you've got any guitar stuff I can work on, I'd love it! I've already learned A couple of minor and major scale patterns, they come in SO handy at band practice, but this 60 chord system looks interesting....

I'm going to sell this 19" monitor if anyone is interested. I need to get a flat screen. Oh yes Im also selling these creatives lol. Its just excess space taken up on my desk.

Thanks for your time!
~Pentium
 
19" moniter

send me a private message about cost and description of monitor and i may purchase it, ive been looking for a 2nd monitor for my studio room
Justin
 
thepentium said:
I have an instructor but he's been kind of weak on the theory, so I started taking piano lessons as well to make up for it... It's helped a lot, but I want to learn all that I can.

First, kinda funny you built an Athlon 64 custom system but your moniker is "Pentium". :p

Now....taking piano lessons is a GREAT idea. I may be a little biased since I am a keyboardist, but it's common knowledge that a piano teacher will know 100x more about theory than a guitarist will. Not that all guitarists are lazy (not that they aren't either, though) ; it's just that {rock, not classical} guitar is pretty easy to just pick up and play bar chords whereas keyboard takes lots and lots of knowledge of leadsheet chords as well as reading 2 clefs and exercising 10 fingers worth of instruments.

And even if your guitar teacher was up to date on his theory, it's ALWAYS helpful to have knowledge of multiple instruments. If nothing else, your bandmates will appreciate it. And you never know when it might get you a paying job.
 
mixedMedium, i agree classically trained learn a hell of alot more lol. I first started out on piano when i was 7 i quit a year ago (along with quitting violin and cello which i had been playing both for 3 years) im now 15 because i didnt have time for my MAIN instruments (drums, and guitar). I still play piano often though. I have a Fender 1972 Telecaster Custom and a Gibson SG Faded Special.
But i too am doing a studio in my bed room. I have a Roland VS-2480 and cheap monitors so im upgrading everything (except the VS-2480:D) soon and i'll be in touch for questions!
 
ok...

thanks fitz2! but i still dont have my problem fixed... i have some pictures of my room if you pm me, i dont have any more room on my server. Anyways, I just took a whole new turn by placeing my marantzes on top of my pie safe in my room, with the amp in the middle. They seem to do awesome up there, but sound just a little overworked when cranked. Is this because speakers do not have so much bass responce in mid air? I noticed the one set next to the wall in the corner creates the most bass, probably by reflecting the waves off of the wall, sending them to the first kick out in the wall, and reflecting it into the rest of the room. About "the corner" as i have dubbed it :p , I am thinking about upgrading this rather puny system (75 watts rms total power.. yeha.. NOT) with a Logitech z5500, 505 watts RMS 1010 watts peak, 188 watts rms sub, etc. I currently have the corner wired for my 5.1 sound.. basicly in wall wireing, so the sub would about have to go in the hutch area, is this a good idea considering what you said about the waves? also, will my original 24 gauge speaker wire i ran inside the wall for the creatives, handel the 62 watts RMS of each logitech speaker, or will i reduce my walls to burning ruins when they hit 120 watts peak.. thanks for any help!

also, I have a 1967 RCA superheterodyne tube radio, with a 50c5 output tube ( 2 watts, but oh well its my first tube prodject) and I would like to transform it into a small tube amp, useing most of the parts available inside the radio. I also need right now 4 7 pin mini sockets for chassis mount, and 2 9 pin mini sockets for chassis mount ( these are tube sockets) and I dont know where to find them , I dont want to spend too much on this.. BTW the radio works beautifuly , all tubes work perfect, and the 4 inch full range alnico sounds so warm and sweet! altho the bass responce is a bit null.. what could cause this? I unhooked the speaker and ran the radio into my marantzes and it didnt sound too much better at all.. same lack of responce. Id say it drops off around 60-80 hz, could this be due to a crummy output tranny for use with a small speaker so the lows didnt hurt it? any help would be EXCELLENT and well apreciated, I am currently looking into this as my first tube prodject and I would like to enter it in 4-H this year if at all possible, I have a nice oak case with an oval shaped plate on the top for the tubes to mount to.



btw, if you still have those amps I might be interested if the price is right! anything to get me into the tube world! :D

thanks!!

TMFK~
 
I just took a whole new turn by placeing my marantzes on top of my pie safe in my room,
I believe these speakers may be ONE of your problems. Most consumer type speakers have a 6db bass boost built in. What you need to hear the truth in your recordings are FLAT RESPONSE monitors.......Studio Monitors. Without these, even a perfect room still tells you a lie, even though the room isn't the problem. Add a bad room response, and you have a double whammy that NO amount of eq will fix. No time for other stuff at the moment. I'll be back.
fitZ
 
well...

well their marantzes, pretty high-end audio from 1978, I heard they cost 700 dollars new~! :eek: anyways.. I know price doesnt have to do with responce, but this is a fairly new thing I have done recently, nothing to do with my sub problem. How do I know these have a bass boost built in? I do have a 5 band EQ on my amp, and I use the one on my computer as well. I try and get the most flat responce, but my room is wacko and all the bass is collected in that one corner and is amplified. I just want some decent sound, and Id like to know if i can put my sub back in that corner or not :confused:

thanks!

TMFK~
 
TMFK said:
basicly in wall wireing, so the sub would about have to go in the hutch area, is this a good idea considering what you said about the waves? also, will my original 24 gauge speaker wire i ran inside the wall for the creatives, handel the 62 watts RMS of each logitech speaker, or will i reduce my walls to burning ruins when they hit 120 watts peak.. thanks for any help!

The wire won't melt, but there will be a pretty good amount of power loss to the wires, as much as 10-20% in a twenty foot run will be dissipated in the cable. Try to wire with 16 AWG.
 
thanks

thanks! I would'nt be too concerned with 120 watts peak on tap per speaker, and the longest run I have is about 20 feet. I ran them from baseboard highth on the wall up into the attic (because I live in a converted garage.. mind you a very NICE converted garage :D ) anyways, Im glad the wires wont melt with that much wattage. If I could I would rewire it with 16 gauge, wich i have on my marantzes, but how in the world do I get back into the wall!?? I wired all of it before the drywall was put up, and for sound deadening purposes everything that could be insulated was.

Thanks,


|------------|
TheMostFearedKeyboardist O||||||||||O
-------------- ( does it look like a piano?) :confused:
 
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