Angled walls vs Square room

jimmys69

jimmys69

MOODerator
Is it worth the time to angle an opposing wall during construction reduce standing waves? If so, what is a worthy angle?

I am about to finish a 14' X 25' concrete walled room to be used as a drums mostly, tracking room. I plan to fill the 24" X 12" open joist ceiling with fluffy stuff and cover with wire and cloth. Floor is concrete. I have every opportunity to build the walls/corners/doors as I wish here. Isolation is not a concern other than access to control room, which will be a double wall/door deal.

Concave or varied angles in build on certain walls? This is not a mixing room so, is balance not an issue? I have constructed uneven (this is not the right word) walls in a studio previously based on a paid designers recommendation; though this guy also placed the control room desk on the long end of the room with no absorbers whatsoever and placed foam on the rear wall. * I therefore do not trust his knowledge based upon what I have learned in this forum, as well as his non-use of reflective panels and bass traps that have worked in my control room wonderfully. {Btw, that wall looks friggen cool, (though I'm not sure it has a worthy effect); Basically the bottom plate is parallel to the 19' brick wall behind desk, with the top plate and studs/drywall extend into the room from the center, 20" on either side at side walls.}

I have not found info regarding an optimal build design for a space this size, specific to when the whole room is being used for drum and instrument tracking. I know this isn't an ideal, large room for drums, but if there are benefits to adding angles, built in corner traps or niches, or any construction level options that would optimize my space? That is my query. Any experience in this area would be greatly appreciated.

If anyone with this knowledge lives in Denver CO, I would be very willing to pay for consultation.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long winded question,

Jimmy
 
Yes, it is worth the time if you have the money and the time. I forget the exact angle...it's been a while since I looked into that stuff (back when I was going to build a full-scale studio). Cruise on over to the John Sayer's forum and do some searching. And pick up Build It Like The Pro's on Amazon while you're at it. GREAT book! I have it. I can even see it on my bookshelf from where I'm sitting. But alas, I am too lazy to get up and thumb through it. :D
 
jimmys69 said:
Is it worth the time to angle an opposing wall during construction reduce standing waves? If so, what is a worthy angle?
Click to expand...

NO. Angled walls are not useful for reducing standing waves. The subject of angled walls becomes increasingly confusing especially on the site mentioned in an earlier post.

Angling walls is good for creating a reflection-free-zone. ONLY. - And this is usually done with treatment - NOT the shell walls.

jimmys69 said:
Concave or varied angles in build on certain walls? This is not a mixing room so, is balance not an issue? I have constructed uneven (this is not the right word) walls in a studio previously based on a paid designers recommendation; though this guy also placed the control room desk on the long end of the room with no absorbers whatsoever and placed foam on the rear wall. * I therefore do not trust his knowledge based upon what I have learned in this forum, as well as his non-use of reflective panels and bass traps that have worked in my control room wonderfully. {Btw, that wall looks friggen cool, (though I'm not sure it has a worthy effect); Basically the bottom plate is parallel to the 19' brick wall behind desk, with the top plate and studs/drywall extend into the room from the center, 20" on either side at side walls.}
Click to expand...

No, symmetry is not an issue in Tracking rooms. - It seems like that wall was a poor attempt at a 'Geddes' wall - which must be angled in both the horizontal and vertical to be effective.

jimmys69 said:
I have not found info regarding an optimal build design for a space this size, specific to when the whole room is being used for drum and instrument tracking. I know this isn't an ideal, large room for drums, but if there are benefits to adding angles, built in corner traps or niches, or any construction level options that would optimize my space? That is my query. Any experience in this area would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

Jimmy,

Angles are good. Especially in a tracking room.

But the treatment should be angled and the space behind is used for trapping. See the article, "Room Acoustics Design and the Frequency-Power Spectrum" on my publications page and you will get a better understanding of how much trapping you need in most small enclosures.

For any build, whether it be a Tracking Room, Control Room, Mastering Room, Home Theater, or a simple Listening Room; the boundaries should be in the form of a rectangle. A rectangle can be analyzed and treatment can be planned, as opposed to a strange angled shape that makes it impossible to calculate modal behavior.

Cheers,
John
 
I am with John on this, Designing rooms in the manner you describe do not reduce room modes in the least - they do (however) make it extraordinarily difficult to calculate the modes you are going to end up with (and the claim that you can just average the room dimensions and use those dimensions in a mode calculator to determine your modal activity is not anywhere near reality).

The 6 degree minimum is not quite right, that is a number used for opposing walls in a control room (where symmetry is paramount) - thus the total between the 2 walls is actually a 12 degree variance, and it is the 12 degree difference (minimum) between opposing walls, that should be the design goal.

I make this distinction because although symetry is critical in a control room - it is not the preferred design in a tracing room.

In a tracking room an asymmetrical design is always preferred....

One of thing worthy of comment, in a tracking room I would not be overly concerned with room dimensions in relation to modal activity if it meant giving up room volume in order to get there - I would always opt for the maximum volume - even if the difference was only 5% in total loss.

The reason for this is that you are never going to end up with a room free of modal activity....

The entire idea of this stems from control rooms - where you are looking to develop a room that you can (in the end) achieve a relatively small "sweet spot" to mix in - this being accomplished through a combination of room treatments - coupled with speaker location and listening position.

However - in a tracking room you will never achieve this room wide. And (although some will argue with me on this due to the fact that modal ringing is always a concern) you can use careful mic placement to minimize this. Although ringing will still be present in the room, the closer you move the mic towards the null, the less of the ringing exists, in a null there is no ringing. By the same token - much as moving the speakers in a control room will show you the best location for the speakers - you should be experimenting in the room to find the best location for your drum set. IN the end there will be one spot in the space where your kit has the best sound.

Now - this is not to say that you should be ignoring bass treatments in these spaces - nothing could be further from the truth - behind those splayed walls we are talking about here is the perfect place to develop as much low frequency control as you can, I am merely stating that modal room concerns are not the largest consideration in a space of this nature.

I hope this helped,

Rod Gervais
Director of Education
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics. Acoustic Panels and Bass Traps. (USA)
GIK Europe, Bass Traps, Acoustic Panels (Europe)
Tel.(US)1.888.986.2789
Tel.(UK)+44(0)20.7558.8976
 
Thanks John and Rod, your understanding and clarity is so helpful; and goes to prove (in my case, at least) that a little knowledge can be dangerous. Rod, I bought your book last month and am still learning a lot, so an extra special thank you to you.
 
Guys I'm not allowed to post image so, I have separated the link from the others, so please, just have it together and put it on address bar.
"You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 5 posts or more."
Good Day,
I'm so glad someone, have this topic in here, cause on John Sayer's

Site, they designed a wall for me, it is curved like this. And I

understand that, the 30 degree wall curve on fronts are for mounting

the speaker, but in their drawing just for visualization, they put

the speaker out for me.
i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab44/kasalnini/kalxnstudio.jpg

So I did the autocad of it, for mounting the speaker.
i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab44/kasalnini/controlroom-1.jpg


My concern is, how to know, what should be an angle of the walls, the

length, the position of it, any reference book or site. Because they

did this drawing for me, when I was 15, I was already into recording

studio, and they designed this for me, they were so fond and generous

and gave me the top design of my studio, (dream to build it soon this

year)
i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab44/kasalnini/Studio.jpg


I am concern of that angling the studio isn't that bad, I only need

control room and vocal studio. I'll do instruments through KOMPLETE 8

Ultimate, and use Microphone, and sing with it.
I only have midi keyboard, profire 2626, dj torq for mixing, and

softwares, and customized pc windows and mac.
Can someone tell me, is this design fine already for what I just

need. Please help me, thank God the last post was in 2011 ^^
 
Kalxn,
The drawing posted in photbucket is a simplification of studio design. The actual room is rectangular. The treatment is angled. Those shouldn't be walls, but absorption or thin panel reflectors. The minimum angle for flutter elimination is 15 degrees. (Angle each wall at least 7.5 degrees for a total of 15) ;)
Designing a room properly requires much more than generic layouts and/or treatment plans. For the typical home studio (demos, writing, etc), panel treatments and generic layouts help tremendously! That's why we're here on these forums.
Angling treatment is NOT bad. Some treatment consists only of angled panels. :)
Here's a couple of good rules to follow: (1. Control rooms = Symmetry Rules! (2. Tracking rooms = never let untreated surfaces face each other.
Cheers,
John
 
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