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Thread: lead lined gypsum board

  1. #11
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    Originally posted by sjoko2
    Anyone who thinks that lead lined panels are safe is, quite simply, fooling themselves, regardless of where and how the lead is fitted.
    Im pretty sure Im not suffering from any health problems and I assure you Sjoko that Im not siffering from any delusional side effects. Were not talking about some cheap homemade panels. Were talking about panels designed to operate in hospitals and are more common than you realize. Lead poisoning isn't caused from airborne particle cuae they don't float in the air, lead poisoning comes from either injestion or through a open wound of some sort. Lead does not emit noxious gases as far as Im aware of. Lead typically can have conversions done to them chemically to prevent oxidation and contamination of mating surface materials. Ive worked in several buildings with lead lined walls and none of the adults in these building have had anything happen, and we get tested regularly for air quality. Paints that contain lead, which is where most of the lawsuits come from, are the major concern because kids when they are small chew on the stuff. You can't believe how much a kid will knaw on something, I got bite marks on furniture. I even saw a kid lick the carpet at a church once. Arsenic is a bigger problem. There are alot of contruction materials that contain arsenic. I saw play grounds get bulldozed from it. You can encapsulate lots of heavy metals and chemicals by closed cell resins. Did you know that the interior of a new car emits noxious fumes?
    Main point is not to eat metallic things... Penny's included.
    I don't recommend smoking either! Its killed a few folks, maybe smoking has even killed more musicians than Lead has X-Ray Technicians...du ya think??

    I apologize for the long post.

    SoMm

  2. #12
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    I'd like to add that encapsulating does not help, as most building materials (timber / drywall etc) are porous.
    Encapsulating it effectively would mean something like vacuum packing.
    Not to be obnoxious, but I've never seen lead plate be absorbed into timber of any sort under any condition.

    The denial of lead in our environment is only recent. It was used in paint, its been used in gasoline, and for a few 100 years we had lead crystal, lead in the silverwear, lead pipes in the house, lead brazed into hotrods (typically as a filler when you do a roof chop). Early circuit boards had lead before someone realized copper is better. In fact, most electronic solder contains lead (and tin).

    There is a huge difference between using lead as a construction material and eating it for breakfast. The problem with lead paint is that the other materials in the paint would dry out, it would flake off, and kids, dogs, cats and hamsters would eat it and get really sick. If you don't eat it, its not a hazzard. This is why its still used in many processes today (such as hospital EMI shielding, laboratories, vaults, etc) and people don't die from lead poisoning. But the lead is solid plate not exposed to corrosion and/or other physical changes whereas it disintegrates into an edible form.

  3. #13
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    Of cause everyone is entitled to their opinion, and while I could jump up-and-down, scream and shout, or whatever, you're free to do exactly what you want to do.

    Lead poisoning through eating paint is indeed the most common form of lead poisoning found in children. Therefore, it is the most publicised form of lead poisoning. (note, in Europe 90% of court cases involving lead exposiure concern adults)
    This does not mean it is the only form of lead poinsoning, by any means, its just that kids do excersice their jaws on inappropriate surfaces.
    Considering the minute amount of lead there used to be in paint, then look at how easy it is for a child to get lead poisoning, and you might get an idea how toxic the stuff is. On top of that, you do not have to eat paint to get lead poisoning, chafing and deteriorating paint make flakes and particles, and that way the lead will do the job as well.

    In adults the most common form of lead poisoning is long term exposiure to lead dust. Lead dust is NOT like normal dust. Lead dust is so fine that it will penetrate all but purpose designed dust masks.

    I learned about lead through in a number of ways. 2 studio renovation projects I was involved with in Europe had (major) delays and extra costs when inspectors had us call in specialist contractors to remove lead from the studio walls before they allowed us to proceed. One friend of mine in London completely changed over a year time. He lost his hearing and became a lethargic couch patato, the opposite of what he was like. He had moved into a new home with a purpose built 3 room studio just 2 years before. 2 walls of the control room were filled cinder block, lead sheet and 2 layers of drywall. Lots of tests - lead poisoning.
    He never fully recovered, has to wear hearing aids, and is, obviously, no longer a mastering engineer.
    Another, unrelated event, I used to have a farm in Yorkshire (UK). it was set in a village, the center of the village is a lake. The lake was a bit strange, nothing seemed to live in it. It was re-stocked with fish various times over the years - they died. A lot of waterhen and duck chicks also died every year.
    Eventually they had the lake tested - lead poisoning. The source? The lead gutter linings of the church roof, which drained into the lake, and that was all.

    Lead used to be a material every studio designed used, and now its use in walls, doors etc is illegal in most countries I know of (the whole of Europe), and everyone used mineral loaded vinyl, which was designed as a lead replacement, with the same acoustical properties.

    Before you protest at my mianderings this time, please consider that I'm just taking the time to write this crap because I don't want anyone to get hurt, and that's it. What you make of it, what you use, is your own decission of cause.

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    Before you protest at my mianderings this time, please consider that I'm just taking the time to write this crap because I don't want anyone to get hurt, and that's it. What you make of it, what you use, is your own decission of cause.
    Your thoughts about others safety and your sharing this information is much appreciated by all, don't think that my disagreeing with you in anyway lessons the value of the information you provided.

    My comments were specifically aimed at used ER walls, because they are constructed in a specific way, which is much different than two layers of concrete block with lead sheeting in between. The walls I have seen, at a hospital in NYC I worked at for a little over a year, were very different, and what I based my comments on. Its entirely possible that this hospital had done a lot of research to know to ask for these types of panels, or maybe they were custom made and I was a bit quick to assume all hospitals are created fairly equal in this regard.

    The panels I am specifically refering too (and the ones I've seen every so often in older financial institutions surrounding the outside of their walk-in vaults) are basically constructed from the center out. The lead is poured/casted into a 2" thick plate, then is then wrapped in fiberglass mat, coated with resin, and while wet, more mat is applied. This continues until the fiberglass all around makes for a panel that is approximately 6" thick total, including the contained casted 2" lead plate on the inside.

    This type of product is different than an exposed lead surface, such as a gutter or something else. There, I would completely agree with you. I've seen my share of dead lakes too, with my father being an avid fisherman in the NJ/NYC/CT area until he retired in florida a year or so ago.

    Anyway, your point is taken and I hope you can see what I was basing my comments on. In the situations you described, I'd absolutely agree with you. I believe these panels to be safe simply because I am very aware of how they are constructed and installed. Thats not to say one risks the danger if they bang the corner hard enough to break it and expose the lead. I made an assumption there too that reasonable care and handling ability would be taken into consideration.

    Sorry for the miscommunication on my part.

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    Don't be sorry, discussion is all cool.
    I'm aware of those panels (and the fact that you need to put the friggin things in place with a forklift or a crane).
    Also the ones used in hospitals...... I got info on them years ago in the UK, got details on them, and did a design where they would form part of a control room front wall - until the county building inspector showed me the terms & conditions that came with it!
    My worry with some of the comments was an oblivian to the main cause of lead polotion in adults, which is airborn, as lead dust is not like viseable dust, and it penetrates just about anything. That's also why, when used, they go to great length to seal it.

  6. #16
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    Sjoko, read with patience then see my conclusion.

    Originally posted by sjoko2
    you do not have to eat paint to get lead poisoning, chafing and deteriorating paint make flakes and particles, and that way the lead will do the job as well.
    We covered this.

    Originally posted by sjoko2

    In adults the most common form of lead poisoning is long term exposiure to lead dust. Lead dust is NOT like normal dust. Lead dust is so fine that it will penetrate all but purpose designed dust masks.
    Anykind of demolition should require the usage of proper protection. Respirators are required by law in the US when destroying anything. Even regular drywall isn't good to be inhaled, as well as concrete dust, smoke..etc


    Originally posted by sjoko2

    One friend of mine in London completely changed over a year time. He lost his hearing and became a lethargic couch patato, the opposite of what he was like. He had moved into a new home with a purpose built 3 room studio just 2 years before. 2 walls of the control room were filled cinder block, lead sheet and 2 layers of drywall. Lots of tests - lead poisoning.
    He never fully recovered, has to wear hearing aids, and is, obviously, no longer a mastering engineer.
    Im sorry about your friend Sjoko. But I would have to ask the question to how he got lead poisoning? If you haven't "chaffed" it, "eaten" it, drank water from a contaminated source because of poor construction techniques how do you get poisoning? Osmosis? My parent used to live in England, in a small town called Harpenden. Since they do not allow pressurized hot water tanks like in the US, the use a open tank usually found in the attic and the showers are gravity fed. Since the tanks are open like a hottub, they are susceptable to contamination. Also the tank in the house we were living in was galvanized steel with welds, I believe that lead use to be used in some welding compounds. My mom was diagnosed as an alcholic while living in England, only to find out is was a liver disorder caused from ibuprofin.





    Originally posted by sjoko2

    Another, unrelated event, I used to have a farm in Yorkshire (UK). it was set in a village, the center of the village is a lake. The lake was a bit strange, nothing seemed to live in it. It was re-stocked with fish various times over the years - they died. A lot of waterhen and duck chicks also died every year.
    Eventually they had the lake tested - lead poisoning. The source? The lead gutter linings of the church roof, which drained into the lake, and that was all.

    Lead used to be a material every studio designed used, and now its use in walls, doors etc is illegal in most countries I know of (the whole of Europe), and everyone used mineral loaded vinyl, which was designed as a lead replacement, with the same acoustical properties.
    Again, poor construction techniques, poor choice of materials for that application.

    Originally posted by sjoko2

    Before you protest at my mianderings this time, please consider that I'm just taking the time to write this crap because I don't want anyone to get hurt, and that's it. What you make of it, what you use, is your own decission of cause.
    Im not protesting Sjoko. Im just saying that in the US as a whole has different standards which are probably more stringent the the UK. Im also saying that based upon my experiences and knowledge that the material were talking about does not have the same properties as paint or lead gutters. The material were talking about is designed to be used in a medical environment so the construction standards are more restrictive than a home studio or a farm house in the UK. Cutting MDF without proper protection is equally as ignorant because the resins are toxic.

    Chill Sjoko, nobody want people to get sick or hurt. But I would suggest using due diligence to look at downstream impacts of using lead in construction. Like you noted, if a family moves in after you, and they don't know its there and they start tearing things apart...dust gets into the ventilation, carpets..etc...its very bad. In fact there are disclosures you have to sign to verify your homes do not have lead in any of the construction. And Im assuming also that your typical homerecordists isn't going to spend the big bucks on environmental protection and the probability of contamination is very high. You probably won't get a building permit either because its illegal to use lead in new home contruction and additions. SO...while I believe it can be done. I don't think that its the wisest choice considering that the dangers of a non-professional installation is higher than the benefits.

    Therefore I conclude that Sjoko's recommendations to avoid it is the wisest.

    SoMm

  7. #17
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    Talking

    Who says I'm not chilled?? Fuck you!!!

  8. #18
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    Just to exhaust the little knowledge that I have, the worst poisonings that I have seen (and defended against) came from burning, while the workers were cutting up steel beams from old bridges that were covered in paint. Very bad exposure - one guy had a 137!!! (and he wasn't even the plaintiff). OSHA says you have to have a closed air system for that level of exposure.

    Ok, that's all my knowledge. Back to learning.

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    Originally posted by ob

    Back to learning.
    Sigh, learning.........another dangerous pursuit

  10. #20
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    Don't be sorry, discussion is all cool.
    Cool

    I'm aware of those panels (and the fact that you need to put the friggin things in place with a forklift or a crane).
    Actually I would consider that the biggest drawback. I for one, don't own a crane

    Also the ones used in hospitals...... I got info on them years ago in the UK, got details on them, and did a design where they would form part of a control room front wall - until the county building inspector showed me the terms & conditions that came with it!
    Maybe the UK is a little more advanced, but here in the USA these panels are okay. At least in NYC which usually is into big union jobs to remove bad stuff.

    My worry with some of the comments was an oblivian to the main cause of lead polotion in adults, which is airborn, as lead dust is not like viseable dust, and it penetrates just about anything. That's also why, when used, they go to great length to seal it.
    Fair enough. I wouldn't expect anyone to cut one of these panels with a circular saw, thats for sure

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