If you can't sing, how can you find the melody?

[grimtraveller]

grimtraveller, you mean I could actually learn how to sing?!

"Course you can, Malcolm".
I'm sure you have thought it through or about it but I was actually being serious that third time. I'm not talking about becoming Maria Callas or Nat King Cole, just enough to diffrentiate the notes. I can think of no scientific, moral, political, spiritual or sarcastic reason why you could not learn to diffrentiate 13 notes. With your voice.

but then can't seem to find the rest of the notes for the line. Could be more D notes, but it I feel like it should go up a note, but nothing seems to fit.

I can sing, certainly enough to show a melody. But sometimes, notes can be hard to get from the mind to the mouth. The way I sometimes write solos is to play the sequence that the solo is going to go over and just improvise by humming or la~la~la~ing there. So it's there as a guide. And when I'm showing the sax player or keyboardist or whatever the part I want them to play, I'm sometimes amazed by how off my guide is. Yet, in my head, I can hear the part quite clearly. Eventually, we get there but as I don't notate the music, it's sometimes a right royal battle.
I used to notate for my friend that played flute. We'd go through the part and I'd write the letter of each note. It was labourious but she was both patient and quick and eventually, we'd get a great piece down.
Another thing that I noticed when I hit 48, I'd hum parts a semitone flatter than they were meant to be. So my sax playing friend would be looking at me all funny as if to say "this is awful discordant shit" but in desperation, I'd say, OK, shift everything up a semitone" and suddenly you'd be getting the sweetest sounding sequence of notes. Weird. So I watch out for things like that now.
I can understand your frustration but I believe that itn is by no means an insurmountable problem. The solution will just be labourious.......but worth it.

[Lt. Bob]

There are very few people on earth that can't actually sing.

lol .... you guys that say that must never have given any lessons!

[grimtraveller]

lol .... you guys that say that must never have given any lessons!

Well, comparitively. I mean, there may be 2 million people that can't sing for toffee and that's alot as a number. But not in China !

[grimtraveller]

But I do think that. I'm not saying "everyone can sing" and I'm especially not saying "everyone can sing well or can be trained to". But most people have no reason to work on their singing voice so they don't. To me, the ability to sing is like the ability to cook or drive.

[Lt. Bob]

To me, the ability to sing is like the ability to cook or drive.

there are PLENTY of people who can't drive safely or cook anything you can choke down.
Personally I think there are also PLENTY of people who can't carry a tune at all and I also DO beiebve that there are PLENTY of people who are 'tone-deaf'. I know there are quite a few here that disagree with me but I think those people haven't even spent much time in a music school.
These are my personal opinions so everyone should stop right now before they launch into an attack or flamewar ...... thank you.

[Steenamaroo]

I'd chime in in agreement with Lt. here.
As he said, no argument or anything.
It's just an opinion but I often see threads with the advice that anyone can learn to sing and I disagree.

I don't have a wealth of experience in tuition, but I've started off a few musicians with guitar/piano/singing and I've taught theory grade 5 a few times.
Once in a while you get one who just cannot differentiate between two different notes, or at least can't understand what the difference is.

I remember trying to explain relative pitch to an 8 or 9 year old kid using extreme examples because he wasn't hearing it.
I was sat at the piano saying "This note" (extreme right hand) "is high compared to that note" (extreme left hand)

He wasn't having it. Even playing scales, climbing up over three octaves, he could understand that the notes were different each time but couldn't hear that they were getting higher each time.
I said, even taking my word for it that this* is high and this* is low, he wouldn't be able to differentiate high from low if I picked to different notes.

IDK, perhaps his ear developed in time, perhaps I just didn't get through to him, but as far as I'm concerned he was the musical equivalent of being colourblind.
You can show him red and blue all day.....it's still grey and grey.

I know a few people who just cannot sing at all. I don't mean they have bad tone or whatever....I mean they drone the same note the whole way through a song.
My Da can't really sing, but you can tell he understands what he's meant to be doing and just isn't that good.
These other people just don't have that understanding at all!

[Mr Clean]

A lot of people are monotone. Just look at TwatFactor! Most of them are brain dead as well too, so that probably doesn't help. Could a monotone person find a melody on a keyboard? Would it be one note all the way through? I don't know.

[grimtraveller]

there are PLENTY of people who can't drive safely or cook anything you can choke down.

When I use the word "can't" in this kind of discussion, I mean "intrinsically incapable" in the same way that a bloke "can't" give birth. Mind you, I did see this documentary once.......

These are my personal opinions so everyone should stop right now before they launch into an attack or flamewar ...... thank you.

I'm a cyberspace pacifist ! Besides, I don't get into wars with guys that are 'hip to the Nazz' {love that phrase }.

Once in a while you get one who just cannot differentiate between two different notes, or at least can't understand what the difference is.

I've got two friends that are both fantastic singers when they can be bothered. I can think of a number of occasions when they haven't been able to diffrentiate between two notes. We've had arguments and fallen out about it. On one occasion, on a particular melodic run over the phrase "I feel like I'm living...." I wanted one of them to sing the word "living" with 3 syllables and the "li-i" part went from G to G#. But my mate kept getting it wrong. And she was saying "I'm singing what you're giving me !" and I was like, "no, you're not ! There's no diffrentiation between the notes" and this rumbled on for a couple of hours. I sat at the piano and kept playing G then G# and singing it over and over and then then she'd try it, wouldn't get it, couldn't hear it. It got very heated there, I can tell you ! In the end I said let's forget it.
But a couple of days later, she came back and got it. That was in 1999 and we still laugh about it now. She still sings beautifully. Both of my friends mentioned do. But sometimes, still, they just don't hear what I can hear so clearly.

[Steenamaroo]

I've got two friends that are both fantastic singers when they can be bothered. I can think of a number of occasions when they haven't been able to diffrentiate between two notes. We've had arguments and fallen out about it. On one occasion, on a particular melodic run over the phrase "I feel like I'm living...." I wanted one of them to sing the word "living" with 3 syllables and the "li-i" part went from G to G#. But my mate kept getting it wrong. And she was saying "I'm singing what you're giving me !" and I was like, "no, you're not ! There's no diffrentiation between the notes"

Aw man, I hear you, but that's a totally different thing.

Your friend couldn't differentiate between two or three specific notes in a specific scenario.
I'm talking about people who can't differentiate between any two notes in any scenario.

I'd say most people have a blind spot like you describe.

[grimtraveller]

I'm talking about people who can't differentiate between any two notes in any scenario.

I've never disputed such people exist. My old mate Chandra is one of those. He loves music, has an extensive record collection and has a good versatile working knowledge of songs of many kinds and can discuss music till the cows come home and leave again. But to hear him sing is a revelation. It's like hearing the low level hum of a car engine idling. Every note literally sounds the same. It's an awful sound. I shiver just thinking about it. He's tone deaf and I don't think you could teach him to be tuneful. He can hear every note but he cannot reproduce them. Any of them. He's beyond microtonal !
I just happen to think he's in the minority.