How many notes can you lift before it becomes plagiarism?

J

jokerone

Guest
So lets say you are writing a homage / parity song about Star Wars, or Star Trek, or Shaft, Towering Inferno, Gilligan's Island, etc.

How many notes in a row can you lift before you have legal problems?

5?
 
Until someone with the rights to the tune deems it worthy of suing you for. If it don't make money, then you have nothing to worry about.

Youtube will give you crap if you don't give credit where credit is due, but I don't see why it would be an issue. Unless you claim the material as your own, it is a cover right? If you procure income from another musician or creators product, then it is an issue.

Give credit to the writers and worry about what is allowed when you create something that is potentially harming to the original owner. :)

I wanna hear some Shaft covers! :)
 
jimmys69 said:
Until someone with the rights to the tune deems it worthy of suing you for. If it don't make money, then you have nothing to worry about.

Youtube will give you crap if you don't give credit where credit is due, but I don't see why it would be an issue. Unless you claim the material as your own, it is a cover right? If you procure income from another musician or creators product, then it is an issue.

Give credit to the writers and worry about what is allowed when you create something that is potentially harming to the original owner. :)

I wanna hear some Shaft covers! :)
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No, I know about the way Covers work. It would not be a cover.

Ok, think of this way.

You are writing a song about Hogan's Heroes.
Completely different beat/ song, but some where in the song you have that "Boom boom, boom boom boom boom boom." from the beginning TV theme, then back to your original beat. This would be just to "flavor" the song.

(just the drums)
Hogans Heroes Theme - YouTube

Or maybe Gilligans Island. "Do-deet deet ta deet deet". part of the beginning of the song. so in this case would be it would be 6 notes and the rest of the song is 100 percent mine.

that is what I'm talking about.
 
There is no magic number of notes. If you've copied, you've infringed.

Non-commercial use is not a defense to copyright infringement.

Giving credit to the author merely means you've admitted intentional infringement.
 
PTravel said:
There is no magic number of notes. If you've copied, you've infringed.

Non-commercial use is not a defense to copyright infringement.

Giving credit to the author merely means you've admitted intentional infringement.
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there has to be a number. otherwise we would run out of note combinations quickly. I.E, you can never use G followed by C.
 
I found this..


Minimum number of notes to be copyrighted? I believe it's 8. I heard Stephen Schwartz speak on writing the music for the hit Broadway musical Wicked on how he would borrow some tunes from The Wizard of Oz, but only 7 notes, because that's the limit to avoid copyright issues.
 
Look at the Vanilla Ice/Queen controversy. He settled out of court by paying money to the writers because of the success he had with it that enabled him to. I'm not sure I have heard of another group of notes ever being considered legally 'stolen' unless it had financial gain. Sampling of actual recordings is another issue altogether. Then is is blatant plagiarism.
 
jimmys69 said:
Look at the Vanilla Ice/Queen controversy. He settled out of court by paying money to the writers because of the success he had with it that enabled him to. I'm not sure I have heard of another group of notes ever being considered legally 'stolen' unless it had financial gain. Sampling of actual recordings is another issue altogether. Then is is blatant plagiarism.
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That was clear plagiarism in my opinion. Same with no talent "Can't Touch this" ripping off Rick James.

What I'm describing is a completely unique song, rhythm lyrics, but references would be from a TV show / Movie.

This would be considered a parody.
The Firm - Star Trekkin' - YouTube

So what if you used the 5 notes from the original star trek theme half way though the song (during the bridge) ? Doo Te Doo, Da Da Ta Da... Would be the only "ripoff" but nothing else in the song would be (other than the parodying of the original show)

thanks.
 
Cant find a definitive answer off hand. I was taught it was 7 consecutive melody notes, but you can even get away with that if the beat and tempo are very different.

George Harrison was sued for "My Sweet Lord" and lost to the Chiffons "Hes so Fine" You can count some places where it seems to be about 7 of the same notes.

Huey Lewis was sued for "I wanna new Drug" by Ray Parker Jr for "Ghostbusters" I believe the bass lines are the same for 7 notes, but Ray Parker lost because the bass line wasn't considered part of the songs melody.

This is going back quite a few years so the law(s) could be very different by now. If you get taken to court a bunch of copyright lawyers will argue it out.
 
jokerone said:
there has to be a number. otherwise we would run out of note combinations quickly. I.E, you can never use G followed by C.
Click to expand...

jokerone said:
I found this..


Minimum number of notes to be copyrighted? I believe it's 8. I heard Stephen Schwartz speak on writing the music for the hit Broadway musical Wicked on how he would borrow some tunes from The Wizard of Oz, but only 7 notes, because that's the limit to avoid copyright issues.
Click to expand...
I'm an intellectual property lawyer, and have been practicing for nearly 25 years. There is no "magic number" of notes.

Greg_L said:
Something like this could be defined as "parody" and therefore would fall under "fair use" protection.
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Possibly, but fair use is a defense to copyright infringement and determined on a case-by-case basis, meaning until he is sued and raises the defense, he won't know whether it falls within fair use or not.
 
Greg_L said:
P0rnos regularly fully rip off real movies - title and everything - but it's a full on sexy parody and therefore protected as fair use.
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Porno producers regularly get sued for copyright infringement.

We're all internet idiots though. Consult an actual lawyer.
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Ahem. I'm not an internet idiot when it comes to copyright law -- I'm an actual lawyer.
 
I thought the Huey Lewis/Ray Parker Jr thing was the other way around.
HL&T News always made me laugh - laugh at popular music trends that is.
 
PTravel said:
I'm an intellectual property lawyer, and have been practicing for nearly 25 years. There is no "magic number" of notes.

Possibly, but fair use is a defense to copyright infringement and determined on a case-by-case basis, meaning until he is sued and raises the defense, he won't know whether it falls within fair use or not.
Click to expand...

PTravel said:
Porno producers regularly get sued for copyright infringement.

Ahem. I'm not an internet idiot when it comes to copyright law -- I'm an actual lawyer.
Click to expand...

There ya go. An actual lawyer. Listen to this guy.
 
Carter USM (The Unstoppable Sex Machine) were sued by The Rolling Stones for using the words, "Goodbye Ruby Tuesday" in a song. Apparently they also used a bass riff from I Can't Get No Satisfaction. (I can't hear it myself)

They had to give a writing credit to Jagger/Richards, an undisclosed lump sum in losses to them and half of all royalties from then on.

I saw an interview with JimBob (Carter USM) and read his book where he talked about it. He said that the band contacted The Rolling Stones' publishing company with regards to the lyrics use a year and a half previous to release and never heard anything back, so they just went ahead and released it. Then they were subsequently sued when the song charted and someone in the 'Stones' camp heard it.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it now and only when and if. If it ever comes about that you're likely to make money from the said track and it be commercially released, get advice from a lawyer. Until then, no one will probably give a rats ass or even notice.

:thumbs up:
 
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