How bad can lyrics get?

rayc

retroreprobate
I was wondering about this & I don't mean the trite pap that pop often uses.
For some reason I listened to some Byron era Uriah Heep tonight. A band I could not get into as a kid or adult and I wanted to find out why. The answer was clear & uncomplicated when I listened tonight.
Their lyrics were utter rubbish. Even given the Dungeon & Dragons theme in general - & there're a lot of band who do/did use those ideas, Heeps lyrics were a stinking HEAP or URIAH & Do Do.
Even as I managed to get along with some of those riffs I get hammered back to reality by the banality and plain awfulness of the stories, the rhymes and the language.
Any similar experiences with other bands/artists/performers who were considered important, deep etc.?
 
Haven't heard any Uriah Heap for decades but I ahd a friend who had a lot of thier stuff. I never paid much attention to the lyrics, just the riffs, as I was a budding but sucky guitarist.
 
I've seen bands that I think lyrics are bad, but some how they work. The Cars come to mind, Talking Heads lyrics seem strange, and yet I really like them.

About the only Uriah Heep album I really ever listened to was Sweet Freedom. The rest of their stuff just was, well hard to really listen too.
 
Dio,
Yep, always seemed to try hard to be deep but came across as pompous and silly.
Cars,
They had some clever/sharp lyrics but they often seemed to try for clever/kooky.
Talking Heads,
Often strange or oblique but clever, insightful and strange.
Queen often had meaningless lyrics early on - or attempts at fairieland/fey, (mostly freddy) but then Brighton Rock, Liar, Flick of the Writs proved that they could be clever and catchy too.
 
Maybe it's because I consider myslef a song writer - but I really focus on lyrics - and I've found that lyrics tend to fall into a couple of categories (at least based on my personal assessment

1. Lyrics that are so mindless or simple that that actual detract from the song (regardless of how strong the music may be)
2. Lyrics that are not great art, but are reasonably easy to listen to (in particular if the music has a solid groove)
3. Lyrics that are solid, in a general communication manner, but are not overly creative
4. Lyrics that are so grandiose that it comes off as overly pretentious (perhaps some of the Uriah Heep lyrics could apply here)
5. Lyrics that tell such a good story with clever phases (without being overly "cute")

It is rare, but I have been drawn to tears on occasion by lyrics which tell a moving story - I don't recall a musical piece that could ever hit me at that emotional level.
 
I'm a fan of Talking Heads and I think David Byrne often comes up with fresh, insightful or funny lyrics.

Stuff that turns me off is that which falls into being overly generic, unimaginative or cliched. There's frigging millions of words out there and the last thing the world needs is yet another song that rhymes phone/alone or fun/sun etc.

I'm pretty tired of hearing genre cliches too - singer/songwriter confessionals, pop songs about falling in/out of love and rap music about guns, bitches, bravado and bling. I like quite a bit of hip hop, but there's so often such a dearth of imagination that it either turns me off it or I have to enjoy it in spite of the tired old subject matter. Rappers who almost exclusively go on and on and on about how great their flow is, or how much better they are than all the other rappers...if it's that great then rap about something else/interesting and I'll pick up how great you are as a result. Some of Jay-Z's early albums are really good, but the price you have to pay is to put up with him telling you what an all round fucking legend he is in every song. Same with some of Kanye's first few albums - good, but man am I tired of hearing the word 'pussy' by the end of 'em.

I don't know why it is - if you were to sing about your genius or diss others in any other genre of music, it would just sound ludicrous.
 
I'm pretty tired of hearing genre cliches too.

Well....I don't know of too many genres that completely depart from using any/all lyric clichés.
It's really about good overall songs, not just lofty/deep/uber-creative lyrics.
I think when some songs get too lyric-focused, too wordy, too "clever"....it can actually drag down the rest of the song, and when that happens, the lyrics become irrelevant.
IMO...you can still write somthing basic, like a good "falling in/out of love" song and not have all the lyrics be just boring and overused cliché rhymes.
There's not too many topics that haven't been sung about or that you can write new/fresh lyrics for and set them to music...and not use some known themes, imagery and words.

I listened to Uriah Heep when the albums were new...Salisbury, Look at Yourself, Demons and Wizards....and at the time, the lyrics made "sense"....:D....like so much of the other "fairies & wizards", fantasy kind of stuff from the late '60s and early '70s.
Coming off the Do-Wop of the '50s and the Motown/AM Pop of the early '60s.....those kind of lyrics were very "deep" at the time, and fresh.

Anyway...lyrics alone don't make a song good or bad…and the majority of popular, loved Rock/Pop/Country songs don't really have very deep lyrics....yet overall, they are still really good songs.
 
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I had a friend who was into Uriah heap.
I thought their lyrics sucked too.

I will say this though...
They had a song "magicians birthday" that was kind if corny but it had a killer guitar solo in it. A really smoking solo with great humbucker tone.
 
I was very keen on heavy metal right through the 70s and listened to a lot of bands that sang about wizards and demons. Most of the lyrics were rubbish even then. If the riffs & heaviness were monsterous enough it allowed them to get away with it. Stairway To heaven is a perfect example lyrically. I have to be honest & say that after the 1st year or two I skipped STH when playing the LP & didn't record it when taping. The album is all the better for the lack of it.
Budgie, generally, avoided silly lyrics by writing about bizarre, oft time ludicrous, topics or using truly odd song titles as a starting point - In The Grip of the Tyre Fitter, Baby, You're The Greatest Think Since Powdered Milk etc. It was a good way of avoiding cliche, giving the melody some thing to cling to and getting a laugh - they did have amusing lyrics. then they'd write something like Parents or Breadfan and demonstrate that they could do rich, insightful lyrics with aplomb.
Sabbath's lyrics were occasionally blah but there was plenty of environmentalism, anti war and occasional wit to get them by and they were HEAVY.
Heep had some heavy riffs and decent sounds but the melody was well up front and carried words too twee for kids books. If Spinal tap had a starting point for their stone henge lyrical satire it had to have been UH. I know the prop story is based on someone else but UH are the basis for superb satire by Tap & Tenacious D. maybe Anvil would be in there if anyone knew them well enough.
Lyrics can make a song "good" or "bad" buy they aren't necessarily a deal breaker for many people. For me, however, from about 1975, naff, right wing or silly lyrics were the deal breaker.
 
I don't know Uriah Heep very well, but I am all about the over-the-top melodramatic wizards and demons lyrics. Yeah, they're dumb, but it's a fun kind of dumb. Even in the 70s, did any of these guys really take this stuff seriously?

It's actually the sappy, happy, heartfelt songs that grate on me. Love songs, "Butterfly Kisses," any thing about family and Christmas, etc. So much of those lyrics just come off as vapid and phoned-in.

Of course, it's all pretty subjective. All of my songs are goofy stories about time travel and space aliens. It's pretty dumb, and a lot of people wouldn't be able to palate it because they don't relate to all of the sci fi that I read instead of dating. Everyone's got their own taste.
 
"Bad" is subjective. It depends on the audience you are seeking to reach and what they consider good or bad.
 
Also don't forget Uriah Heep and Talking Heads were both decades ago.. do you guys really think you could overcome your temporal biases to know how those lyrics sounded at that time? Because I don't know if I could.
 
Also don't forget Uriah Heep and Talking Heads were both decades ago.. do you guys really think you could overcome your temporal biases to know how those lyrics sounded at that time? Because I don't know if I could.

Yes, at some point the Beetles were a new band. Now they are something more. Everything is in context of the time.
 
Stuff that turns me off is that which falls into being overly generic, unimaginative or cliched. There's frigging millions of words out there and the last thing the world needs is yet another song that rhymes phone/alone or fun/sun etc.

You know, I've gone back and forth on the whole hey-day-may-say-way thing, and the way I think about it now is that I want to write words that kind of glide by, not too many barbs that stick out. The listener is free to pick up on them, and they hopefully don't suck, but they also don't take the listener hostage by being too "important sounding" or unconventional. I kinda like words to have a flow and not sound too forced. Kinda like all that math-rock that's a bunch of changes and unconventional time sigs thrown together...not seeing the forest for the trees, thinking it'll make a song "interesting" when there's really not much song there. But my tastes have been changing toward more trad sounding stuff in recent years, so you get my biased opinion there.
 
Also too many people confuse poetry and song lyrics which, I think, are completely different. Song lyrics are not meant to sustain the weight of poetry and often suffer from clunky attempts.
 
Of course, it's all pretty subjective.

+1

Also don't forget Uriah Heep and Talking Heads were both decades ago.. do you guys really think you could overcome your temporal biases to know how those lyrics sounded at that time? Because I don't know if I could.

+2

You know, I've gone back and forth on the whole hey-day-may-say-way thing, and the way I think about it now is that I want to write words that kind of glide by, not too many barbs that stick out. The listener is free to pick up on them, and they hopefully don't suck, but they also don't take the listener hostage by being too "important sounding" or unconventional. I kinda like words to have a flow and not sound too forced. Kinda like all that math-rock that's a bunch of changes and unconventional time sigs thrown together...not seeing the forest for the trees, thinking it'll make a song "interesting" when there's really not much song there. But my tastes have been changing toward more trad sounding stuff in recent years, so you get my biased opinion there.

+3

Also too many people confuse poetry and song lyrics which, I think, are completely different. Song lyrics are not meant to sustain the weight of poetry and often suffer from clunky attempts.

+4

:)


I spend a lot of time on lyrics...not because I'm trying to write "deep/important" kind of stuff....rather just trying to say stuff that's probably been said a million times in a million songs, and not have it sound too cliché.
You can't dismiss simple, basic lyrics that use every-day language and phrases....the same stuff that's been used a million times.
It's about *songs*, the lyrics simply need to fit the song and work with the overall vibe....they don't need to be uber-creative to hit home with people and be entertaining and therefor help make the song a good song.
If you just want to impress with the lyrics, and you don't much care if there's not a lot of people who "get" them or can connect with them....that's fine....but if you want to write stuff for general consumption, it has to be accessible, it has to mean something to a lot of people, and just not you and a small niche crowd, unless that's all you care about.

This discussion reminds of something I recently read in one of the trade rags (I get a few, so not sure if it was Mix or Tape Op, or Electronic Musician, etc).
Anyway, there was some article, and if I recall, it was Nile Rogers talking about how one time when he was ragging on and on about the "quality" of the music out there, and the "silly" songs that were getting all the radio time, etc, etc...another music industry pro (can't recall who it was) said to Nile Rogers (paraphrasing here)...."WTF do you think you are to judge some song as crap when millions of people are liking it?"...and Nile went on to say in the article how that hit home and he realized how right this other guy was.

So point being, as was said earlier.....it's all subjective.

Getting back to Uriah Heep days in the early '70s....we didn't memorize and sing all those weird lyrics, and read all kinds of "messages" in them. Heck, most of the time you kinda' heard one or two lines that stuck in your head, and the rest was more of an overall listening experience of the the whole song. No one at the time was thinking "Wow, what deep lyrics". :D
Like the song "July Morning", which I always liked....all I can remember is the opening line.... "There I was on a July morning, looking for love," ...if I heard the song, I might recall some of the other lines, but mostly it was about the transition from the vocal portion of that song to the second half that turns into a jam on organ and guitar...etc. That's what made it a good song to me....not the "deep" lyrics.
By the way...I always thought that GNR took the the "July Morning" motif/structure and used it for their song, "November Rain" (another song with not so special lyrics, but one of their most played songs).
 
By the way...I always thought that GNR took the the "July Morning" motif/structure and used it for their song, "November Rain" (another song with not so special lyrics, but one of their most played songs).

Funny, I always hear Elton John Funeral for a Friend in that one.
 
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