Song Lyrics vs Music

Let me ask this: you've got great music - instruments, melody - why would you NOT want good lyrics to go with it?

I can answer this one.

95% of people who listen to music (or whatever percentage it actually is) are simpletons who don't understand lyrics that are deeper than something like "I just met you, call me maybe" or "my anaconda don't" It's just the way it is now. Aside from musicians, there is a massively underwhelming number of people who actually take the time to listen to music and try to understand what the lyrics are really saying, what message is being conveyed and how each instrument plays it's part to attain the communication of this message.

I also feel this is part of why metal is so widely unpopular in mainstream music. The vocals are harsh and aggressive (NOT angry or violent, these are different things) the messages tend to be very indirect and often "taboo" as well. The guitars are loud, piercing and aggressive. The bass and drums are loading the bottom end up and can have a very rhythmic and tribal sound to them. All these things together make a sound that is abrasive to the ears at least initially, add on that you can't listen to most metal and just know what the song is about and yeah... way too complicated for 95% of the people in this world.

Music, especially lyrics, in the mainstream is about what's catchy, what's easy to hum or sing to, money, women, drugs, clubs, bling bling and being a gangster. Anything other than those things and you're in for a rough time typically.

EDIT: Another example. One of the most popular songs on the radio by Tool is Stinkfist. I'm not here to debate what genre Tool is, I feel they are progressive metal but I digress... people think this song is about fisting someone. It's not... not even a little.
 
I can answer this one.

95% of people who listen to music (or whatever percentage it actually is) are simpletons who don't understand lyrics that are deeper than something like "I just met you, call me maybe" or "my anaconda don't" It's just the way it is now. Aside from musicians, there is a massively underwhelming number of people who actually take the time to listen to music and try to understand what the lyrics are really saying, what message is being conveyed and how each instrument plays it's part to attain the communication of this message.

I also feel this is part of why metal is so widely unpopular in mainstream music. The vocals are harsh and aggressive (NOT angry or violent, these are different things) the messages tend to be very indirect and often "taboo" as well. The guitars are loud, piercing and aggressive. The bass and drums are loading the bottom end up and can have a very rhythmic and tribal sound to them. All these things together make a sound that is abrasive to the ears at least initially, add on that you can't listen to most metal and just know what the song is about and yeah... way too complicated for 95% of the people in this world.

Music, especially lyrics, in the mainstream is about what's catchy, what's easy to hum or sing to, money, women, drugs, clubs, bling bling and being a gangster. Anything other than those things and you're in for a rough time typically.

EDIT: Another example. One of the most popular songs on the radio by Tool is Stinkfist. I'm not here to debate what genre Tool is, I feel they are progressive metal but I digress... people think this song is about fisting someone. It's not... not even a little.

Good thing I write for the other 5% .... :cool:
 
In general chicks pay attention to lyrics over music, but good music creates the vibe and opens the door to the lyrics.
its a one hand washes the other deal.

Guys, tend to not pay attention to lyrics so much.
I can't tell you how many times something I've heard for years, and loved, lost its luster once I actually paid attention to the lyrics. The older i get the more it matters.

I think its a two way street. If you have both good lyrics AND good music, you're golden.
 
In general chicks pay attention to lyrics over music, but good music creates the vibe and opens the door to the lyrics.
its a one hand washes the other deal.

Guys, tend to not pay attention to lyrics so much.
I can't tell you how many times something I've heard for years, and loved, lost its luster once I actually paid attention to the lyrics. The older i get the more it matters.

I think its a two way street. If you have both good lyrics AND good music, you're golden.

Guess I must be a chick then. ;) (I'm not.)

Ive heard allota people saying lyrics don't matter. If your lyrics don't matter... Dude, if that's the case, your entire SONG doesn't matter in my opinion. But, then again, that's just my opinion. If I'm listening to a song, and the lyrics don't grip me. If the words don't make me feel alive or, in the case of some songs, make me feel like I'm dying; If the lyrics are "Who let the dogs out?" Or "shake it off" or "whiskey makes my baby feel kindy frisky" or more of the same idiotic brainless tripe, I trash it.
On the other hand, if the music is kinda lame, but the lyrics catch my imagination, or speak something true to human experience (as is the case with Lee Brice's I Dont Dance) I will listen to the song over and over. Because LYRICS MATTER! Songs like Salvation, Madness In Me, Falling In The Black, and Whispers in the Dark by Skillet, or songs like The Prophet, Lonley Places, and How Long by Michael Card, these are songs that speak straight to the deepest part of who I am. You wilk never be great artist if your lyrics are empty. Sorry, I feel very strongly on this topic. :)
 
I only care about the music, lyrics are something that have to be done to make your music listenable to the average person. It's no fun at all for me and if I could get away with it I'd hum the melody.
 
For me, the lyrics have to be happening or the song is flawed. I can think of a lot of potentially great song that are held back by inane lyrics.
 
neither the music or the lyrics are as important as the melody. That's just the truth...terrible melody with great music or great lyrics won't get anyone very far. a great melody with bad music and lyrics will win. like someone used the example earlier, "call me maybe" is incredibly catchy no matter how many of us think it's a ridiculously stupid song. dumb lyrics, cheesy pop music produced well...but the melody is what caused millions to download it. don't overlook this most critical factor in songwriting. also, "top lines" are very important - the combination of word choice and peak drama in sections of songs. think, "...and the SHAAAADOW OF THE DAAAAY". those words with that phrasing and that emphasis are dramatic and engaging. that's another important aspect. sometimes "what" you're saying in songs isn't as important as "how" you're saying it.
 
My primary focus is guitar, but also write songs and lyrics. People have different ways of going about what drives the song. Singers who write songs will focus on lyrical content and melody as the primary, whereas more instrument based writers will frame the song around a piece of music. Not always, but usually. At least this has been my experience with who I've worked with.

Most non-musician types listen for the lyrics as the most important piece of the song. Does a lyric have impact because of the content, is it blatantly forward in what it's trying to say, is the lyric more poetic with listen interpretation in mind, etc.? I do think lyrical content needs to have emphasis, however, it's the melody and expression of the lyrics that carries more weight for me. Also, how that melody and expression is interwoven in the dynamics of the overall song. The ultimate is a great balance of lyrical content, sung around a great melody, sung expressively where the listener resonates with all these things, framed together with the dynamic high's/low's of emotion in the song as a whole. Really, if you think about it, voice is an instrument that has expressive qualities beyond just about any other instrument. Aside from being able to mouth words, those words can be sung with meloncholy, anger, sexually charged, etc.
 
I guess it really depends on the purpose of the artist. Are you trying to express passion and truth? Are you trying to speak to people and touch them with your music? Or are you trying to get popular and sell hits and make money? If you are the latter, I would simply quote the song Cage on the Ground: "Welcome to the Machine..."
 
the Internet is full of people who have never penned a song that's been published and recorded by a signed artist.....telling other people how to write songs.
if people tell you how to write a song take it with a grain of salt. If it's Bob Dylan or Paul McCartney telling you how to do it....listen to what they are saying.
 
If that was in response to my comment, Jimmi, they may like a ride in "The Machine" Idk. I wasn't saying one way or another. There are literally hundreds of songwriters who write and record hit songs. "Call Me Maybe" "Sexy and I Know It" "Party In the USA" are just three songs that are crazy popular. They have a catchy beat. They're all up beat. They're all empty and devoid of any meaning or feeling. But there they are. That's basically the definition of the Pop and Country genres. If that's what you're shooting for, If you wanna be the star with all the glitz and glamour and glory, don't let me stop you. I'm not telling you HOW to write a song. I'm telling you WHY to write a song. Personally I hate songs with emptiness. Songs written just to make a paycheck. So welcome to the machine. Maybe it'll be a blast for you. Maybe not. But my bet is anyone who takes that road is gonna end up worn and ragged and empty at the end.

But, I've never had a song recorded by a signed artist. Don't plan to unless I get signed myself. So, you could say, "What do I know?" I know that I've been writing songs and music for 14 plus years. And I know that I've written from the heart of who I am. So if you'll except my two bits based on that, glad I could help. If not, well you're just another people on the internet, too. ;)
 
Just because some songwriters don't have hits, it doesn't mean there is no validity in an opinion they may have.
I have come across many a talented writer that is unknown. Not many get the brass ring. That takes more than just talent. Connections are involved.

As far as this thread, I haven't seen anyone telling someone HOW to write a song.

people are however talking, and its not the "cave" or prime time gibberish that a lot of threads degrade into. It is intelligent on topic conversation.

For myself as a writer, I couldn't write a hit to save my life. Not that I wouldn't mind earning a living writing songs.
It's just that my mind doesn't work that way. I can't think in that lowest common denominator.

Stuff I generally write has some meaning, at least to me. Even some of my silly non serious songs have roots in some experience or observation.

Yeah, I couldn't write a "let's get this party started"

Bur thats just me, another dude on the internet who's opinion means nothing.
:-)
 
I wasn't aiming my comment at anyone in this thread or even on this websight. I have been to songwriting websights and "experienced" writers will take apart someone's lyric and start regurgitating stuff out of songwriting books (I know because I've read the books). Then you look at their songs and they aren't very good. It's laughable. You know, sometimes you read a lyric or hear a song and think "Man...I wish I had written that!"

Their songs will not do that to you if you know what I mean.

They have read some books on composing songs and now they are more expert advisors to new songwriters than they are songwriters.

I shouldn't have said "Someone who hasn't been published and had a signed artist cut one of their songs." That's a very high bench mark and there are some good songwriters that haven't been published. I should have instead put it like this:

Before you put a lot of stock into the advise a songwriter is giving you...check out some examples of their work. If you absolutely love their songs pay attention to what they tell you. If you think their songs are poorly composed and have no appeal to you....Take it with a grain of salt.
But, check out their work and at least see what their capabilities are before letting them sway you on a lyric, a melody, or an idea.

I didn't mean to offend anyone here by any means. I haven't seen that here. Mostly here people try to help you develop an idea.
 
@ Jimstone, no worries. I for one took no offense to your post.
Yours and ressurect's posts just made for good discussion.

I'm with you on what you are saying.

Checking the results of the source of info is very important.
Just because one has command of the language and can type, doesn't mean they can do. :-)
 
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Before you put a lot of stock into the advise a songwriter is giving you...check out some examples of their work. If you absolutely love their songs pay attention to what they tell you. If you think their songs are poorly composed and have no appeal to you....Take it with a grain of salt.
But, check out their work and at least see what their capabilities are before letting them sway you on a lyric, a melody, or an idea.

This is all it boils down to. I don't understand why people don't seem to know this already.
 
I wasn't aiming my comment at anyone in this thread or even on this websight. I have been to songwriting websights and "experienced" writers will take apart someone's lyric and start regurgitating stuff out of songwriting books (I know because I've read the books). Then you look at their songs and they aren't very good. It's laughable. You know, sometimes you read a lyric or hear a song and think "Man...I wish I had written that!"

Their songs will not do that to you if you know what I mean.

They have read some books on composing songs and now they are more expert advisors to new songwriters than they are songwriters.

I shouldn't have said "Someone who hasn't been published and had a signed artist cut one of their songs." That's a very high bench mark and there are some good songwriters that haven't been published. I should have instead put it like this:

Before you put a lot of stock into the advise a songwriter is giving you...check out some examples of their work. If you absolutely love their songs pay attention to what they tell you. If you think their songs are poorly composed and have no appeal to you....Take it with a grain of salt.
But, check out their work and at least see what their capabilities are before letting them sway you on a lyric, a melody, or an idea.

I didn't mean to offend anyone here by any means. I haven't seen that here. Mostly here people try to help you develop an idea.

Man this is so true. The songwriting forums are full of these people. That's why I avoid them. I'd rather just write my own cheezy 3 chord love songs for my wife - even she gives me the old "yeah that's nice" every so often but I keep on doing it lol.
 
I wasn't aiming my comment at anyone in this thread or even on this websight. I have been to songwriting websights and "experienced" writers will take apart someone's lyric and start regurgitating stuff out of songwriting books (I know because I've read the books). Then you look at their songs and they aren't very good. It's laughable. You know, sometimes you read a lyric or hear a song and think "Man...I wish I had written that!"

Their songs will not do that to you if you know what I mean.

They have read some books on composing songs and now they are more expert advisors to new songwriters than they are songwriters.

I shouldn't have said "Someone who hasn't been published and had a signed artist cut one of their songs." That's a very high bench mark and there are some good songwriters that haven't been published. I should have instead put it like this:

Before you put a lot of stock into the advise a songwriter is giving you...check out some examples of their work. If you absolutely love their songs pay attention to what they tell you. If you think their songs are poorly composed and have no appeal to you....Take it with a grain of salt.
But, check out their work and at least see what their capabilities are before letting them sway you on a lyric, a melody, or an idea.

I didn't mean to offend anyone here by any means. I haven't seen that here. Mostly here people try to help you develop an idea.

Dead on. I'm not offended at all. I actually mostly agree with what you said, and completely agree now that you reworded it.
 
For me the best songwriting/performing is probably from 80s:

Take my breath away by Berlin,
and
Time after Time performed by C.Lauper.
I ve got Time after Time cover by guitar only by Red (modern arrangement), it sounds amazing.
 
the Internet is full of people who have never penned a song that's been published and recorded by a signed artist.....telling other people how to write songs.
if people tell you how to write a song take it with a grain of salt. If it's Bob Dylan or Paul McCartney telling you how to do it....listen to what they are saying.

Clearly so, if you're asking about the technical aspects of songwriting or the creative process. The finished product, though, is fair game for anyone to judge and comment on. It's a public art form; if it doesn't appeal to non-musicians, what's the point?

The lyrics must matter to the general public. The labels that release popular music may put out a lot of schlock, but they understand what the average listener wants. Otherwise they wouldn't be releasing popular music. They seem to insist that the lyrics be intelligible, now more than ever. I remember those long, smoke-fueled conversations with friends back in the 70s, trying to decipher the lyrics of the latest tune by Zeppelin, or whomever (...did he really say "big-legged woman?"...whoa, man; heavy!").

Doubt that happens as much anymore.
 
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