Song Lyrics vs Music

ido1957

ido1957

9K Gold Member
I wasn't sure how to title this thread so I'll try to explain it her in the post itself.

I've been to a few Songwriting forums lately. The critics seem to be super concerned with the lyrics. The need to be "more meaningful", "show me, don't tell me", "more specific", "tell us the whole 10 chapters of why she shot her husband". I think you get my point - critiquing ad nauseum about how they would do it and make it more "interesting". The music is seldom mentioned and so the abundance of "guy and a guitar" results.

To me, lyrics are where I start but I don't think about any of these things when I write them.

What ever happened to the music? There seems to be too much attention to the lyrics and not enough about what's going on behind it.
If it doesn't move me musically it isn't going to work for me. Sure lyrics can be cool but why does everyone need to be Bob Dylan?

Some of the biggest pop/rock hits had meaningless lyrics and some had none. "yes Dick I give it an 85 because it had a good beat"

/end rant
 
Well, if you are just writing lyrics, they lyrics are important. To me, lyrics are important, but in the context of the music. If one can't play/compose, then more has to be carried with the lyrics.

I am getting more and more less lyrics centric and more musical based. I really think you can add a lot of 'interpretation" with the music that just pure lyrics can do. Even Bob wasn't always wordy. Knocking on Heaven's Door, Lay Lady Lay, "All Along the Watchtower" as examples.
 
It depends on where the musical story is.

If you have something to say, and you want people to understand, appreciate and respond to what you have to say, then it helps if you can say it well. "saying it well" means avoiding the writing traps that people can fall into, i.e. the things the songwriter forum critics have been referring to. It's not really different to what goes on in the MP3 forum about mixing: critics there are equally critical (your guitar sounds too fizzy, the snare needs to come up, there's too much mud in the bass and so on).

In both cases, lyric writing and mixing, in the end you can do pretty well what you like: if someone likes the song (or you), if it somehow resonates with them, then they will accept it as it is, despite its apparent flaws.

Not all lyrics have something particular to say. Some are there just to move the music along, a bit like signposts along a road, and so it doesn't matter much what the lyrics are, so long as they kind of sound right. Billy Thorpe and the Aztecs had a hit in 1964 with the song "Mashed Potato". The lyrics were "Mashed Potato yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah".

When I listen to music I don't care about the lyrics all that much, so long as they sound right (even though I care a lot about the lyrics that I write). But I get turned right off when I hear songs with banal, boring, cliched lyrics. To me that reflects either incompetence or laziness, i.e. they didn't know how to write anything better, or they couldn't be bothered.

I do like very much the advice: "Show me, don't tell me". The playwright Chekhov said: “Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass.”
 
The musical world is descending into Chord 2,3,4 change 2,3,4 change 2,3,4, change 2,3,4 numbness...

Although I try to write good lyrics I agree with you on the music thing. It's what happens musically before anyone opens their trap in front of a microphone that generally piques your interest enough to want to listen. Very few songs have singing at bar 1 beat 1.
 
Lyrics are important, but many peoples idea of what constitutes a "good" lyric is flawed. The perfect lyric is completely ignorable and doesn't steal focus from what's going on musically. Clumsy overwrought lyricism sticks out, catches the listeners attention too much. Gotta be smoove.
 
Your biggest problem was going to a "songwriter's forum". Unless of course those critics are actually successful songwriters that have actually sold songs and have made a bunch of money. If they're just internet nobodies critiquing songwriting, then don't waste your time with them. Many of the most popular songs ever also had the simplest, dumbest lyrics ever.

I'm more a fan of the music and energy in a song. I don't know the names or words of lots of songs that I really like,.
 
gecko zzed said:
"Mashed Potato yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah"
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I took the liberty of looking this up and, as I suspected, it's meticulously thought out and complements the music elegantly. If Parlophone paid to press thousands of these you can bet these guys agonized over every single "yeah" and whether or not to put the "oh" there.
 
fat_fleet said:
Lyrics are important, but many peoples idea of what constitutes a "good" lyric is flawed. The perfect lyric is completely ignorable and doesn't steal focus from what's going on musically. Clumsy overwrought lyricism sticks out, catches the listeners attention too much. Gotta be smoove.
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"Clumsy overwrought lyricism" is not good songwriting, and I would expect that that's what would be pointed out in a songwriting forum.

On the other hand if a "perfect lyric is completely ignorable", then why have it? I think that the perfect lyric is completely complementary to the music.
 
gecko zzed said:
On the other hand if a "perfect lyric is completely ignorable", then why have it?
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Well, I guess because it sounds cool.

gecko zzed said:
I think that the perfect lyric is completely complementary to the music.
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Yup, and for me that lies in the sound and cadence of the words more than any meaning, message, or story. SO it's more important to sound good than to make sense, if that makes sense.
 
fat_fleet said:
Yup, and for me that lies in the sound and cadence of the words more than any meaning, message, or story. SO it's more important to sound good than to make sense, if that makes sense.
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I agree with that. I think the phrasing and melody is more important than the actual words.
 
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Greg_L said:
Your biggest problem was going to a "songwriter's forum". Unless of course those critics are actually successful songwriters that have actually sold songs and have made a bunch of money. If they're just internet nobodies critiquing songwriting, then don't waste your time with them. Many of the most popular songs ever also had the simplest, dumbest lyrics ever.

I'm more a fan of the music and energy in a song. I don't know the names or words of lots of songs that I really like,.
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Greg_L said:
I agree with that. I think the phrasing and melody is more important than the actual words.
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Two very true statements.....
 
Perhaps it depends on what motivates you to write. I'm older and grew up listening to the classic styles of songwriting, including Tin Pan Alley, Brill Building, etc. Most of these songs had clever lyrics and catching melodies. The harmony chord structures often were somewhat basic and the arrangements were often fairly simple - but the songs were identifiable and memorable.

So, I enjoy good lyrics and strive to write well crafted songs that tell a good story, etc.

During the last couple of decades groove, riffs, etc. often drive songs more than melody, lyrics and chord structure - so people influenced by more modern pop/rock may not focus as much on lyrics.

As with most things in art, there is no absolute right or wrong - simply a matter of personal reference and taste.

I suspect most people who frequent songwriting forums or seminars respect the more time honored tradition of clever lyrics, etc. so that dictates their opinions and comments.

Just like this forum, there are various opinions - and all we can do is take away what we think has value and disregard the rest.
 
ido1957 said:
What ever happened to the music? There seems to be too much attention to the lyrics
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Here's your answer.

I've been to a few Songwriting forums lately. The critics seem to be super concerned with the lyrics.
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I bet one of the sites was songwriting101.com. Most people there (and other songwriting sites) aren't musicians, so they can only write lyrics. Therefore, the words are more important to them than the music or the song as a whole. They write lyrics and call themselves songwriters. :facepalm:

And there are those who are musicians at those sites, but they seem to be more about acoustic singer/songwriter stuff where the strumming guitar is all that is needed to accompany the lyrics. I find it sad that they don't strive to construct a song that is fluid and dynamic and can hold a listener's attention on more than one level. And yes, I'm stereotyping those poor saps because they are all the same (at those songwriter sites, not you Gerry.)
 
Greg_L said:
Your biggest problem was going to a "songwriter's forum". Unless of course those critics are actually successful songwriters that have actually sold songs and have made a bunch of money. If they're just internet nobodies critiquing songwriting, then don't waste your time with them. Many of the most popular songs ever also had the simplest, dumbest lyrics ever.

I'm more a fan of the music and energy in a song. I don't know the names or words of lots of songs that I really like,.
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You could say the same of people coming to homerecording.com for mix critiques, though, couldn't you? ;)

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Really, it all depends on what YOU want to do with your songs. Some people like songs with simple lyrics they can sing along to ("TEQUILA!") Others want lyrics that move them emotionally. Some people want songs they can dance to, others want fantastic guitar parts ....
A really well-written song will appeal to more than one group of listeners.

The songwriting forums at musesmuse.com have sections for lyrics-only, full songs (lyrics + music) and instrumentals - like any internet forums, you can ask opinions, and discard those you don't agree with or find less-than-useful.
 
mjbphotos said:
You could say the same of people coming to homerecording.com for mix critiques, though, couldn't you? ;)
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I find in the MP3 Clinic most of the songs have more than a voice and guitar (usually a full "band" even if synthy). Now the vocal forum - let's not get into that....
 
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