How to look at your songs objectively ?

I tried a writing course a couple of years back just for something to do. I was dubious and concerned about mixing with the muse.
What I found, was formulaic, cynical, rules based and lacking in creativity.

I was very recently asked to prepare an outline (curriculum) for a songwriting "course" (I prefer the term "workshop". The Cultural Center in my community reached out to me since I attend a monthly "songwriter's meeting" (in which some local songwriter's share our material and if/when appropriate offer encouragement, critique, etc.)

Since I've had some small "commercial success" as a songwriter (being published with songs in a couple of movies, a TV show and a few indie artist recordings - as well as composing cue music for a couple of local indie films and industrial training videos, etc.) - I guess I am perceived as someone with knowledge and insight.

For the last couple of weeks I've been reading numerous books related to songwriting (some I previously read and some I've owned but never looked at). As I review and organize the data in a way that is not open plagiarism - I've come to certain conclusions:

1. You can teach the basic concepts of "songwriting" as applies to certain recognized applications (going all the way back to "Tin Pan Alley", the Brill Building, etc.) of rhyming schemes, song structure, etc. And I believe you can teach some fundamental concepts related to melody and rhythm.

2. You can teach how the use of those concepts can be used to "improve" songwriting in a manner which while some would argue is safe and formula driver - can indeed improve the potential for the song to meet certain "criteria" that most publishers are looking, for
Note: The debate if this equates to a "good" song or making a "good" song "great" - is something that pundits can debate into eternity - but it can improve the potential for getting a song published

3. You can teach techniques for finding clever song titles, hooks and other songwriting "tools" that can improve a writer's ability to create a solid song.

4. You can teach the business aspects of songwriting (how to present demos to publishers, how to interpret publishing contracts, etc.)

5. You can not teach passion nor can you teach how to create a song that can touch another person

Personally, I see nothing wrong with songwriting courses, workshops, etc. - if the instructor is reasonably knowledgeable and can present the information in a qualified manner. However, it does depend on what the writing is seeking. If the writer is hoping to achieve some level of "commercial success" then some things can be taught/learned - however, if the writing in only interested is serving his/her own artistic desire with no interest in trying to create an income producing craft - then there would be no value for that writer to try to acquire any additional "knowledge" about the formula driven concepts of writing.

On a side note, my mother-in-law is a well respected writer, with several 3 act plays that have been performed around the world and with two published novels. For many years she taught writing at a local community college - and she and I have discussed the debate about trying to "teach" writing. Regardless if the media is song, book or play, the concept remains the same - you can teach commonly recognized techniques - but you can't teach passion or creativity.
 
I was very recently asked to prepare an outline (curriculum) for a songwriting "course" (I prefer the term "workshop". The Cultural Center in my community reached out to me since I attend a monthly "songwriter's meeting" (in which some local songwriter's share our material and if/when appropriate offer encouragement, critique, etc.)

Since I've had some small "commercial success" as a songwriter (being published with songs in a couple of movies, a TV show and a few indie artist recordings - as well as composing cue music for a couple of local indie films and industrial training videos, etc.) - I guess I am perceived as someone with knowledge and insight.

For the last couple of weeks I've been reading numerous books related to songwriting (some I previously read and some I've owned but never looked at). As I review and organize the data in a way that is not open plagiarism - I've come to certain conclusions:

1. You can teach the basic concepts of "songwriting" as applies to certain recognized applications (going all the way back to "Tin Pan Alley", the Brill Building, etc.) of rhyming schemes, song structure, etc. And I believe you can teach some fundamental concepts related to melody and rhythm.

2. You can teach how the use of those concepts can be used to "improve" songwriting in a manner which while some would argue is safe and formula driver - can indeed improve the potential for the song to meet certain "criteria" that most publishers are looking, for
Note: The debate if this equates to a "good" song or making a "good" song "great" - is something that pundits can debate into eternity - but it can improve the potential for getting a song published

3. You can teach techniques for finding clever song titles, hooks and other songwriting "tools" that can improve a writer's ability to create a solid song.

4. You can teach the business aspects of songwriting (how to present demos to publishers, how to interpret publishing contracts, etc.)

5. You can not teach passion nor can you teach how to create a song that can touch another person

Personally, I see nothing wrong with songwriting courses, workshops, etc. - if the instructor is reasonably knowledgeable and can present the information in a qualified manner. However, it does depend on what the writing is seeking. If the writer is hoping to achieve some level of "commercial success" then some things can be taught/learned - however, if the writing in only interested is serving his/her own artistic desire with no interest in trying to create an income producing craft - then there would be no value for that writer to try to acquire any additional "knowledge" about the formula driven concepts of writing.

On a side note, my mother-in-law is a well respected writer, with several 3 act plays that have been performed around the world and with two published novels. For many years she taught writing at a local community college - and she and I have discussed the debate about trying to "teach" writing. Regardless if the media is song, book or play, the concept remains the same - you can teach commonly recognized techniques - but you can't teach passion or creativity.

Well said! :thumbs up:
 
My 'downside' as a producer is that I am a perfectionist (I know everyone says that..), I like to change a lot. Add a bit of this and that, maybe change an entire refrain because the sample wasn't 'mixable'.. because of that I don't know if I can look at the song the same way as I did when I made it.

So what? You have ideas to improve a song while you are recording it. You have the capability to incorporate those ideas, or at least audition them. As a producer, don't you want to do that? How will you know if your intuition is any good if you don't try?

I'm afraid that I've listened to it so many times that all of the flaws are flying past my head because I got used to them.
Well, remember that when you first heard them you were at least lukewarm on them, because you let them stay. Sometimes trusting your judgement is taking a risk. Go for it.

I listen to a song from the other room, standing on my head, scrolling through facebook, talking to someone, all of that just to listen to it from a fresh perspective.

Standing on your head is weird. Just sayin'. :)

What do you do to stay objective (I know you can never be 100% objective) , and do you know if you've changed to much and the song has lost it's initial magic ?:guitar:

Are these your songs? If they aren't, I imagine the person who wrote them will tell you when to chill out. If they are your songs, remember that you are going to write a lot of songs, and many of them are going to disappoint you.

You are learning. Don't slow down learning to fuss too much over one song; you can always record the damned thing again later.

Songwriting and recording are really fun ad hoc improvisational tools and you should absolutely color way outside the lines any time you feel inclined to do so.

Let yourself have fun and don't worry about perfection because perfection is fucking boring. You want character and personality and dynamism and color.
 
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