Do you compose forward, backwards or both?

dreamsound2

New member
In other words do you start with a vocal melody and lyrics and then add backing music to that OR do you start with backing music (guitar, bass, piano, synth) and then add a vocal melody with lyrics?

I'm writing a whole article on this here, let me know if you have any suggestions: http://digitalmusicians.net/?p=5
 
instrumentation first, almost ALWAYS

p.s. there are many threads on this... I tried starting one, and then someone told me the same thing. search it.
 
In other words do you start with a vocal melody and lyrics and then add backing music to that OR do you start with backing music (guitar, bass, piano, synth) and then add a vocal melody with lyrics?

I'm writing a whole article on this here, let me know if you have any suggestions: http://digitalmusicians.net/?p=5

There are differing opinions.

I prefer:

idea ... title ... music ... melody ... lyrics

That's the order in which I almost always write. On occasion, I have conceived of a melody and lyrics first, but I have never been able to compose backing music after imagining the melody and music first. I'm not talented enough, I suppose.

There are some very talented musicians and songwriters in this forum with advanced abilities and talents. They can probably offer much more insight. :)

Cheers,
Joseph
 
You are making some big assumptions about ‘completeness’ and the evolution of the song.

I start with
Lyrics (sometimes Ch hook, sometimes opening lines)
Riffs (guitar/keys/mandolin/bass)
Progressions (guitar/keys)
Beats & Bass.

Sometimes the music will finish before the lyrics; sometimes most of the words are done before I pick up an instrument.

My point is before the song is done the music, lyrics, instrumentation, arrangement, recording and mixing have all influenced each other. I do go through a clinical phase with the lyrics where I check that the ideas are clearly expressed, connected and engaging and on occasions I have completely trashed all the lyrics held onto the music and rewritten lyrics at a latter date. However the music evolved through the original lyrics not as an exercise in musical composition

I do not think I compose in a line – so there is no fwds or bwds – it is more of a lateral process for me.
 
The process, for some people, is linear. Joseph gave an example of a linear approach: "idea ... title ... music ... melody ... lyrics"

If we accept that Joseph has captured the main ingredients with his nice summation, then we can dwell on various combinations of these for a while.

For example, it is possible to have "idea . . . lyrics . . . melody . . . music . . . title", an equally valid way of producing a song. In fact, as there are five ingredients, there are 5! (factorial five) combinations, i.e. 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = 120 possible, and equally valid, ways of assembling a song in linear fashion. Some might argue that the number of combinations should be fewer, because logically, you would start with an idea first. This is not always the case. Sometimes I've had no idea for a song, but a phrase or a melody pops into my head and I build something from that, not really knowing what it is going to be about until later. However, I concede that it would be exceedingly rare (though not entirely inconceivable) to get through a sequence such as "title . . . melody . . . music . . . lyrics . . . idea".

However, as Burt (Whatmysay) notes, not all songs are created linearly. Sometimes these ingredients emerge in parallel, with the development of the lyrics running alongside the development of melody, with each influencing the other. At other times you might create a chorus, or a verse, from which you construct the basis of a song, then find the rest of the words later. Sometimes you can plunder your own resources, and marry a middle eight of an old song with one you are creating.

When Dreamsound2 states "There are two ways of composing, forwards and backwards", he is broadly right in that, quite often, a songwriter will work on a set of lyrics, perhaps alongside the melody, before determing the structure (forwards), or create the music and write the lyrics after (backwards). However, this generalisation is not very helpful, because there are so many other ways in which a song can be crafted, and in the context of the article, even less helpful, because of its didactic nature: there are two ways (no more, no less) of composing, as opposed to something that acknowledges the diversity of this art: "two common ways of writing songs are . . .".

There are other problems with the article, which I won't dwell on too much, but the main points are:

1 the art of songwriting is not easily encapsulated in three and a half paragraphs. I would balk at the task of trying to summarise it in a short article like that.

2 the article mixes up songwriting and recording techniques (para 4). Arranging a song is an artform in itself, and so is recording that arrangement.

3 and I am puzzled by this recommendation: "I also recommend a regular tape recorder which you can output back to your DAW and get the original saturation and warmth from regular tape." The purpose of getting a regular tape recorder was, I thought, to capture ideas. A casette walkman or a dictaphone was handy for this sort of thing . . . you know . . . you're driving along somewhere and you get this melody in your head . . . and it's vanished by the time you get a chance to do anything with it. There are more sophisticate devices around now for that. But for getting "the orignal saturation and warmth"? I don't buy it.
 
It appears you're offering an opinion piece rather than an article of fact (let alone faith).
I'll offer my ideas but only on the guarantee that you'll :
quote me accurately;
triple cross reference all ideas put forward in your article as fact;
provide examplars, (aural &/or written) of recommendations you use:
provide me with a copy of the article prior to the publication for scrutiny
&
prove to me that you can & do write songs well.
 
My song-writing

Interesting question...

I think it would be a mistake for us to try and formulate our writing for any other reason than as an exercise. My tunes come from all over the place... usually, I sit on an idea for a really long time, because I really want my songs to speak, but yesterday, while on an airplane without an iPod, and then while playing video games, I came up with and got down 3 separate ideas on staff paper and a mini disc recorder and they are going to make great songs. They are just bits and pieces, a 2 bar repeating chord progression w/ melody over-top, an outro hook (chords and mel), etc. But usually, the chords and melody accompany each other, and I "hear" them in my head at the same time. Having a background in and love for great jazz composers such as Bill Evans and Wayne Shorter have really strengthened my inner ear, so that when a melody pops into my head, there is automatically a chord progression underneath. My writing sky-rocketed with a little better understanding of harmony outside the conventional pop world, which is what I write 90% of my tunes for.

Other times, a progression will come in my head. Then I'll just start humming trying to find the melody. Usually, the rhythm of the melody lends itself to a certain lyric, which then becomes a working concept for the song.

Lyrics are always the bear for me, but I feel no rush to hurry my art. If I don't like the line that is stuck in my head then I just sit on it until a new one comes out.

Songs are stories of life... I prefer to let them unfold in a like-fashion.
 
Most of the time, I develop a chord progession which then leads to an idea for a melody. While I hum/scat the melody some lyrics come to me, often including the lyrical hook which often becomes a title. From there it is simply a matter of writing/re-writing until I have a "song"

Less often, I will develop a riff/musical hook and then develop the chord progression from there - with lyrics being last.

Only once or twice have I written lyrics first and then developed a melody/harmony from there (although I have writen a few songs for lyrics provided to me from someone else.....although I do not find this come very easy to me).

I think most songwriters have songs start in many different ways - you simply have to be open to the muse when it hits....regardless of what some first.
 
Almost always (and all of my life) I get a fragment of melody and lyric more or less at the same time (from somewhere..) and these days I then work on that without instrumentation.

My view is that if the main melody of a song doesn't stand up on it's own without backing, then it's just not good enough. I carry on with this acapella until the verse and chorus are more or less stable. Sometimes for years! (Yes, I am some kind of nutter!)

The first instrument I add is bass, i.e. put a bass line under the melody. I generally haven't got much further than that with any new songs in recent years and am just building a home studio now to get some serious recording done.

In the past, I used to strum chords on a guitar a lot and melodies would come to mind from that but I found the same chords falling under my fingers all the time, so I stopped doing it that way.

Sometimes I'll come up with a bass line while I'm doodling around on bass and that will lead to an idea for a melody above it.

The lyrics, I don't know where they come from, I have always loved words so I don't find it hard to write lyrics but I tend to rewrite, rewrite and rewrite ad infinitum. I like a song lyric to stand up on it's own a bit like a poem does. It's not essential by any means but I do like it when the lyric reads well on paper as well as sound good when it's sung.

I don't know if my method is common or not, but there is nothing you can sing that can't be sung, and no one you can be but you can learn to be you in time, it's easy..:D
 
Hi!

This is an interesting question, because I never really analysed what actually came first. After reading this thread I thought a bit about it.

In most cases the melody and (basic) harmony all comes together. I thought that this was the case with most piano composers!? When I hear a melody in my head (that wants to get written down) it also somehow includes the harmony. Hard to explain, but when I whistle or hum the melody, a certain mood arises which demands for certain chords.

When the melody and harmony are laid down I'll go into more detail in the arrangement. Different bass notes, sometimes a chord substitution here and there. This is also where I invest much time in the voice leadings (like chord inversions on piano and all that stuff) to get the most out of the song.

But in fact... melody (with basic harmony) is what comes into my mind first. As I said, I thought that's the way it is with piano composers: sitting down, left hand doing harmony and right hand melody - very closely connected in my case.

Bernd
 
Every single Elton John song begins as lyrics written by Bernie Taupin. No melody in Bernie's mind at all. Mr Taupin then gives the lyrics to Elton, and he writes a melody to those words.

I write the same way (though not even in the same universe as Elton/Bernie!!!). I often write lyrics at night while watching TV with my wife talking to me. Just plunking away on the laptop, with the lyrics taking shape in MS Word while RhymeZone.com is used to supply me with rhyming words to suit my subject.

I don't worry a lot about how profound or cliche my lyrics are when they are done. While they are important, lyrics pale in comparison to a good melody and hook/chorus/riff. When was the last time you heard a "hit lyric"? It's always the tune.

To each their own, and as long as it works, there is no right or wrong way to write a song.
 
When I write a song I typically, but not always, will write the lyrics as quickly as possible to get the story down. Then I rewrite them and get rid of any superfluous words. Then I rewrite trying to avoid cliche's (Unless that's what I am going for.) Finally I read the lyrics out loud in a sing-song fashion and scratch in accent marks on the stressed syllables. The melody then comes easily and doesn't seem forced. Riffs and chord structures are added last once I have the melody in my head. It is a great mechanism used by poets and songwriters alike. Play with it and enjoy the outcome. Of course, if nothing else works then just keep writing, playing, and singing. It's still a lot of fun and some real gems are written that way also. Sooner or later we all find the method that works best for us. It happens for each of us at different rates. Dave aka up-fiddler
 
I think that it’s overly simplistic to suggest that songs always get written either “forwards” or “backwards”. Ideas can come from any direction and apply to any part of the process. Bits and pieces can also come from a number of different people - not necessarily just a single songwriter or a pair with clearly defined roles such as lyric writer and music composer.

It’s not necessarily a predictable process over a set time either. Parts of potential songs might be kicking around on the back-burner for years before the writer decides that they’ve found some matching pieces. And parts of those ideas might get re-jigged or re-cycled into other work too.

I still find that I can take a perfectly good idea and screw it up in any number of different ways... ;) So about all I can say is that no matter where the initial ‘inspiration’ might come from you still need to learn the craft. The more you understand about the whole business of building and shaping music and lyrics the better your chances of successfully building on whatever ideas you may start with. Plenty to learn yet, so it’s back to work for me...

Cheers,

Chris
 
....It’s not necessarily a predictable process over a set time either. Parts of potential songs might be kicking around on the back-burner for years before the writer decides that they’ve found some matching pieces. And parts of those ideas might get re-jigged or re-cycled into other work too.....

You hit the nail on the head with this. I keep a folder of past written ideas and micro tapes with sketches that I recorded in the car while driving. When I block up then I go back to the folder. There are so many hours of bits and pieces there that I always come away with something that is a new take on something I gave up on months or years earlier. Songs I write but don't like go there also. You never know where the next spark will come from.
 
how ever it comes is the best way....what a dumb question

Well . . yes . . . it's kind of a dumb question . . . but only if you are not aware of the possibilities. Maybe there are some people who've been led to believe that you write a song in a particular way, and are not having much luck, but not realising that you can in fact write a song however you chose.

And with the range of responses we've got, we can see how varied the approaches are, and that is interesting in its own right.
 
I always start with the hook. Whether it be musical, lyrical, arrangement, a riff, or some kind of gimmick (haven't actually used any gimmicks but I'm including them), the hook is always what pops into my head first. From there I build the foundation to place my hook, whether it be musical, lyrical, etc etc etc.

Because each song has a different hook or different type of hook, each song is written in a different sequence.

No set rules.

(heh, I should make that a Sticky - No Set Rules... nothing else, just that.)
 
Back
Top