12/8 or 4/4 with a triplet feel

paw1

New member
I keep seeing people writing "no, it's not 12/8, it's 4/4 with a triplet feel". If every beat with four divisions of three notes are "4/4 with a triplet feel", then what the hell is 12/8? The idea of "4/4 with a triplet feel" sounds like a bad idea because of notation.

Lets use "Time" by Supergrass as an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIffNMGyxzE

12/8 or 4/4 with a triplet feel? Can you show me a song that has the opposite meter to this one and explain what sets the meters apart?

Much appreciated
-paw
 
There's not really a clear answer. You could notate this in 6/8, 12/8, or 4/4 with a triplet (or "swing" or "shuffle") feel.

6/8 is to 12/8 what 2/4 is to 4/4. You can never really say one is right and the other is not. You could just as easily count a song in 2/4 or 4/4. 4/4 just happens to be more common, although I'm not terribly sure why. Maybe just because it means half the measure numbers?

Same thing with 6/8 and 12/8. You could count either one. I would personally call this tune 12/8 before 6/8 simply because the guitar riff lasts for four pulses before it repeats (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12), so it seems logical to me that you would divide the measure there.

I'm not really sure why fat_fleet is saying it's definitively 6/8 and not 12/8. Care to explain?

Generally speaking, if the tempo is really slow, as in a slow blues, most people notate in 12/8. But if it's a faster shuffle---something like "La Grange," for instance---you'll have more eighth notes played (with a swing feel) than you will triplets generally speaking. And it's easier to notate those in 4/4 (since the beams are connected) than it is in 12/8, which requires quarter/eighth, quarter/eighth, etc.

A song like "Everybody Hurts" by REM would be notated as 12/8 or 6/8 (and you'll see versions of both), though, because the tempo is so slow. "House of the Rising Sun," though a little faster than "Everybody Hurts," would also be 12/8 (or maybe 6/8) because, again, the main rhythmic unit is that rolling three-notes-per-pulse feel.
 
Thanks for the explanations guys. I just don't understand the necessity of "4/4 with a triplet feel" when we have 12/8. But that's just me. To me "Time" feels like 12/8 and "House of the Rising Sun" feels like 6/8, probably because of the heavy accented bass note on the guitar every six 8th notes.
 
I keep seeing people writing "no, it's not 12/8, it's 4/4 with a triplet feel". If every beat with four divisions of three notes are "4/4 with a triplet feel", then what the hell is 12/8? The idea of "4/4 with a triplet feel" sounds like a bad idea because of notation.

Lets use "Time" by Supergrass as an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIffNMGyxzE

12/8 or 4/4 with a triplet feel? Can you show me a song that has the opposite meter to this one and explain what sets the meters apart?

Much appreciated
-paw

If I played you one bar of 4/4 containing four groups of triplets then played you one bar of 12/8 containing 12 quavers, it'd be impossible to tell the difference unless you had a tempo reference for the two.
Both would be 12 notes in a row, all of equal duration.

How you choose to group them (if you were writing something) would come down to phrasing, accents, beat pattern, chord duration, riff duration...All sorts of things.
 
Because House of the Rising Sun is definitively in 6/8 and this has the exact same meter, accents, and kick/snare placement.
https://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/song-writing-and-composition/what-time-signature-388938/

Wait ... why are you saying "House" is definitively in 6/8? Check out some versions of the sheet music, and you'll see it's notated in both.

In 12/8
The Animals "The House of the Rising Sun" Guitar Tab in C Major - Download & Print - SKU: MN0041650

In 6/8
House of the Rising Sun sheet music for Guitar and Vocal - 8notes.com

And here it is even in 4/4
The Animals "The House of the Rising Sun" Sheet Music in D Minor (transposable) - Download & Print - SKU: MN0042949

Secondly, why did you link to the thread above?

Please tell me how you can definitively tell 6/8 from 12/8. I'd really like to hear.
 
Wait ... why are you saying "House" is definitively in 6/8? Check out some versions of the sheet music, and you'll see it's notated in both.

In 12/8
The Animals "The House of the Rising Sun" Guitar Tab in C Major - Download & Print - SKU: MN0041650

In 6/8
House of the Rising Sun sheet music for Guitar and Vocal - 8notes.com

And here it is even in 4/4
The Animals "The House of the Rising Sun" Sheet Music in D Minor (transposable) - Download & Print - SKU: MN0042949

Secondly, why did you link to the thread above?

Please tell me how you can definitively tell 6/8 from 12/8. I'd really like to hear.

Because RAMI and Steen said it is. Go interrogate them jackass.
 
Thanks for the explanations guys. I just don't understand the necessity of "4/4 with a triplet feel" when we have 12/8. But that's just me. To me "Time" feels like 12/8 and "House of the Rising Sun" feels like 6/8, probably because of the heavy accented bass note on the guitar every six 8th notes.

Right ... I would tend to put "House" in 6/8 as well probably because of that. But it is no less "correct" in 12/8. It would just have two chords per measure instead of one.

Regarding the necessity of 4/4 with swing feel, like I said, if it's a fast song, like "La Grange" or--even better--a fast jazz swing tune, it's a lot easier to notate (and read by the way) a bunch of beamed eighth notes than it is to notate quarter/eighth, quarter/eighth, quarter/eighth, etc. in 12/8. Does that make sense?

In other words, in a fast song like that, you're not going to be counting the triplets. You're going to be counting quarter notes. So it makes sense to give the quarter note the beat.

But in a slower song like "Everybody Hurts," you are going to be counting those eighth notes (1 2 3 4 5 6, etc., so it makes sense to give the eighth note the beat.

There are a lot of songs in between --- like "Pride and Joy," for example, that could really go either way.
 
Because RAMI and Steen said it is. Go interrogate them jackass.

Wow .... I was being sincere. WTF?

If you look at Steen's comments above, they basically echo exactly what I'm saying. I doubt he can give me a reason why "House of the Rising Sun" is definitively 6/8 and not 12/8 either. If he can, I'd (sincerely) like to hear.
 
If I played you one bar of 4/4 containing four groups of triplets then played you one bar of 12/8 containing 12 quavers, it'd be impossible to tell the difference unless you had a tempo reference for the two.
Both would be 12 notes in a row, all of equal duration.

How you choose to group them (if you were writing something) would come down to phrasing, accents, beat pattern, chord duration, riff duration...All sorts of things.

Yeah, but when I say "four divisions of three notes" doesn't that imply an accent on every "one" in every division?

But what you say is kind of my point: 12/8 or "4/4 triple feel", it doesn't really matter, but the latter is just more awkward to notate, so what's the point? :confused:
 
Regarding the necessity of 4/4 with swing feel, like I said, if it's a fast song, like "La Grange" or--even better--a fast jazz swing tune, it's a lot easier to notate (and read by the way) a bunch of beamed eighth notes than it is to notate quarter/eighth, quarter/eighth, quarter/eighth, etc. in 12/8. Does that make sense?

In other words, in a fast song like that, you're not going to be counting the triplets. You're going to be counting quarter notes. So it makes sense to give the quarter note the beat.

But in a slower song like "Everybody Hurts," you are going to be counting those eighth notes (1 2 3 4 5 6, etc., so it makes sense to give the eighth note the beat.

There are a lot of songs in between --- like "Pride and Joy," for example, that could really go either way.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Thanks for explaining it to me.
 
Wow .... I was being sincere. WTF?

If you look at Steen's comments above, they basically echo exactly what I'm saying. I doubt he can give me a reason why "House of the Rising Sun" is definitively 6/8 and not 12/8 either. If he can, I'd (sincerely) like to hear.

Course I can't. That was covered in the other other thread. Where you said "It would just have two chords per measure instead of one." is, of course, right.

Yeah, but when I say "four divisions of three notes" doesn't that imply an accent on every "one" in every division?

But what you say is kind of my point: 12/8 or "4/4 triple feel", it doesn't really matter, but the latter is just more awkward to notate, so what's the point? :confused:

No, the grouping of notes doesn't imply an accent. There are various symbols which dictate various accents in music notation. > ^..stuff like that.
I know you're quoting someone but let's be clear..it's not a 'feel'. It's not a vibe or a mojo either.
It's triplets in 4/4.

What's the point in what?
There's no point scoring HOTRS in triplets - 4/4 at all. It's just possible, that's all.
You'll find on forums if something's possible, some idiot will argue for it.

A sequence of triplets in 4/4 at a 160 BPM just happens to sound the same as a sequence of quavers in 6or12/8 at a 120 BPM.
Staying within one tempo, triplets exists because they're unique and serve a purpose.

With this 4/4 triplets example, all people are doing is changing one variable (tempo) then changing another variable (meter) to get back where they started, albeit looking slightly different on paper.
 
Course I can't. That was covered in the other other thread. Where you said "It would just have two chords per measure instead of one." is, of course, right.



No, the grouping of notes doesn't imply an accent. There are various symbols which dictate various accents in music notation. > ^..stuff like that.
I know you're quoting someone but let's be clear..it's not a 'feel'. It's not a vibe or a mojo either.
It's triplets in 4/4.

What's the point in what?
There's no point scoring HOTRS in triplets - 4/4 at all. It's just possible, that's all.
You'll find on forums if something's possible, some idiot will argue for it.

A sequence of triplets in 4/4 at a 160 BPM just happens to sound the same as a sequence of quavers in 6or12/8 at a 120 BPM.
Staying within one tempo, triplets exists because they're unique and serve a purpose.

With this 4/4 triplets example, all people are doing is changing one variable (tempo) then changing another variable (meter) to get back where they started, albeit looking slightly different on paper.

That's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed some glaringly obvious point during my 30+ years studying music theory. :)
 
So for those of you out there who can read music (I'm obviously not one of those), it's all about where the accent falls, correct? So is the accent always on the one? in this instance 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 - would this be an instance of 6/8 time? and this
1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 - be 3/4 time or 12/8 time? This is not a facetious question - I'm really trying to understand this whole counting thing.
 
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