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12/8 or 4/4 with a triplet feel
- Thread starter paw1
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RAMI
Guest
You know what's amazing? Hitler changed fashion history forever. He was such a horrible person that nobody will ever wear that little moustache because of him. It's a good thing he picked such a stupid looking thing to grow on his face. Imagine if he went with the Elvis sideburns? Elvis would have never been able to wear those. He probably would have had to go with the stupid, square moustache.
Steenamaroo
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famous beagle
Well-known member
Well, that's not always entirely true. Sometimes a song will start out with a repetitive rhythm that contains a certain number of notes, and it will hint at a different time signature until the rest of the band comes in.
For example, I could play a rhythm that spans 3 eighth notes over and over, and without anything else, it would probably sound like 6/8 or 3/8 or 12/8 etc. (or 4/4 with a shuffle feel). But you could then add a 4/4 beat under it and reveal what it truly is. Check out the attached awesome MIDI version of just such a thing.
Or, for instance, Radiohead's "Let Down" begins with a guitar figure that repeats a five-note sequence over and over. Until you hear the band kick in, you have no way of knowing that it's not 5/8 or 5/16 but simply 4/4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z_NvVMUcG8
So, although it's not often missing, you do need context to clearly identify a time signature.
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RAMI
Guest
Yes, you're right. There are poly-rythms, etc...There are songs where the drums play a straight 4/4 over a guitar pattern that's 3/4 (for example). If we only heard the guitar in the intro, we'd think the song is in 3/4. OK, I get that. But we're talking exceptions. In general, like in that other thread, you don't need to hear anything more than the pattern you're dealing with to figure out the time signature.
I was referring to people that were saying they need to hear more of the song to figure out what the time signature of THAT pattern is. That is 100% false. The time sig of that pattern is what it is.
In fact, if all you had was one pattern to deal with, you can still figure out what the time sig of THAT PATTERN is.
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RAMI
Guest
..and actually....technically, that Radiohead guitar part IS still in 5/16 or whatever. The drums are in 4/4, but the guitar part isn't. The SONG might be in 4/4 because of the drums, but that doesn't change what the time signature of the guitar is. They just meet up every 4 or 5 bars (Again, didn't take the time to figure out). But I'd still say "The guitar pattern is in 5/16, played over a 4/4 drum beat".
Either way, this is an exception. 99% of the time, a time signature is what it is. You don't need to hear every bar of a song and break it down to figure out a time signature.
Either way, this is an exception. 99% of the time, a time signature is what it is. You don't need to hear every bar of a song and break it down to figure out a time signature.
famous beagle
Well-known member
It's definitely the exception. I was just saying that you actually always do need context to find out the time signature of a song. It's just rare that you don't have it.
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RAMI
Guest
Man, I think we pretty much agree, so I don't want to prolong this just because of a little detail here and there.
But I still insist you don't need context to figure out the time signature of something. Exceptions aside, if someone plays a guitar part for you, like in that other thread (remember that other thread? It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about), and asks you what the time sig is, you can tell them. You don't have to hear the rest of the tune. The time signature of that patter is what it is. It's just math. That pattern will have a certain amount of 16 notes in it. If it has 16 16th notes in it (like the pattern in that other thread), it can't be 5/4, 7/4, or anything else. You can't make 5/4 out of 16 16th notes no matter how you try to twist things. You don't need to write out the pattern either. You just need to count.
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RAMI
Guest
The main part of Pink Floyd's "Money" is in 7/4. Yes, parts of the song change to 4/4, and that would be reflected in the sheet music. But if all you had to go on was that bass line intro, you wouldn't need anything else to count it out and determine it's in 7/4. That bass line is in 7/4. Period. You don't need "context" to figure that out. That's all I'm saying.
famous beagle
Well-known member
Right ... I don't disagree with this. I said the time signature of a song. You just said the time signature of something.
If you just heard the beginning of my MIDI example above, you might say it was in 6/8, but the song is in 4/4.
That's all I'm saying.
I completely agree with your second paragraph.
famous beagle
Well-known member
Right, I don't disagree with this at all. But the drums are playing in 7/4 too, so there's your context.
But if, say, a song began with a riff that sounded like 3/4 and then the drums came in and made it clear that the song was in 4/4 actually, that's the kind of context I'm talking about.
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RAMI
Guest
True. I am talking about hearing a pattern and figuring out the time sig of THAT PATTERN. No argument there.
In fact, my Pink Floyd example actually supports what you're saying more than what I'm saying. The intro is in 7/4, but parts of the song are in4/4. You would need to hear the SONG to figure out that it's not all in7/4.
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
It is often the percussion that provides context.
If you hear a repeating riff of three notes played on a guitar over and over again, you cannot tell whether those three notes form the notes of a 3/4 bar, or whether they are triplets in a 4/4 bar. It is not until other instrumentation comes in that you get the context that you need to determine the signature.
This potential ambiguity in signature is not an uncommon trick in songs. One often used is to have just two notes repeating, which inititially suggests 2/4 or 4/4, then the rest comes in and you discover those notes are but two of a 6/8 bar.
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RAMI
Guest
There's an Alan Parsons song that does something like what you guys are talking about. I can't remember if the synth line suggests a certain time signature which turns out to be something else when the drums come in....or, if the synth line is in 4/4, but you think the "1" is somewhere until the drums come in and then you realize the "1" is actually somewhere else.
Did that make sense? Anyone know the tune I'm talking about?
Did that make sense? Anyone know the tune I'm talking about?
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
Yep . . . and it does my head in.
Sometimes I'm half listening to the car radio, and my brain gets stuck into hearing a song the wrong way, i.e. for me the snare is hitting on 1 and 3, then after a while my brain sorts it out, and the sane is back on 2 & 4.
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RAMI
Guest
Man, now I want to find that Parsons tune, but I'm not going to subject myself to listening to a bunch of his shit to find it.
I once did a gig on acid. I think I played about 3 songs in a row inverted, with the snare on 1 and 3, before the band took a break and allowed me to find "1" again.
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RAMI
Guest
Found it. I have it cued up to where the synth starts. Every time I hear this, I think the "1" is on the lowest note of the synth pattern. But it gets turned around, or inverted when the drums come in.
https://youtu.be/u7oAuba3Ekg?t=1m58s
https://youtu.be/u7oAuba3Ekg?t=1m58s
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Steenamaroo
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Melon = twisted. I hate and love stuff like that in equal measure.
Same thing happens on the intro to Coma by GnR, although much simpler.
The baseline seems to encourage your place accent on X then the drums come in and inform you that it's on Y.
This is the intro I'm talking about, if anyone wants to look it up.
Same thing happens on the intro to Coma by GnR, although much simpler.
The baseline seems to encourage your place accent on X then the drums come in and inform you that it's on Y.
This is the intro I'm talking about, if anyone wants to look it up.
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RAMI
Guest
I just listened. I didn't have a problem with that one. The first note of the bass is on the "1" and remained there for me. Sometimes we have mental blocks for some things that others don't have a problem with.
I have a mental block with Jimi's version of "All Along the Watchtower". I still, to this day, have trouble coming in with the lead after the intro. I'm still looking for the "1" all these years later.