Well of course. But it's a fact too. Dm IS the sadest key!
Singing Flat/Sharp Keys vs 'normal' Keys
- Thread starter ryannn29
- Start date
Well of course. But it's a fact too. Dm IS the sadest key!
R
RAMI
Guest
Is that Olivia Newton John with some facial hair?
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
All jokes aside {and that is one of the funnier lines}, that is a lovely piece of music.
SteveAlton
Member
KEY IS EVERYTHING.....
I'm an acoustic player & play keys and tune down a whole step and constantly Capo up...This allows me to play in any key with the fingering that these fat, chubby fingers do best. Oh and my pinkies are crooked inward at a 20 degree angle...on keys I transpose up AND down....Same theory as acoustic....my fingerlings I am good at allow me to play in any key....
As a singer it allows me to play with keys.....wish I knew about the tuning down and capo up 30 years ago when I had a monster 12 string ovation......
I'm an acoustic player & play keys and tune down a whole step and constantly Capo up...This allows me to play in any key with the fingering that these fat, chubby fingers do best. Oh and my pinkies are crooked inward at a 20 degree angle...on keys I transpose up AND down....Same theory as acoustic....my fingerlings I am good at allow me to play in any key....
As a singer it allows me to play with keys.....wish I knew about the tuning down and capo up 30 years ago when I had a monster 12 string ovation......
rob aylestone
Moderator
Well - I've come across at least half a dozen accomplished pianists who have told me exactly the same thing, and one classical pianist even had a piece re-recorded a semi-tone down because it didn't sound right. There are many western traditional music pieces that are played in excruciatingly difficult keys to play, simply because they sound better. It's one of the annoyances of just temperament, where the intervals are not quite right - so changing the key to reduce the slight clashes is standard for serious pianists. Some end up having to practice a piece for ages because the fingering in 5 sharps is damn hard. The simple solution of changing key is not up for consideration. It also happens in modern music written by people who are real pianists. Rarer with people who's main instrument is something else. Study some piano composers and see what keys they use.
R
RAMI
Guest
You might be right. I'm not an accomplished keyboard/piano player, so I can't speak for that with any real authority. But, I do know that changing keys on guitar changes the timbre of the instrument a lot more than changing keys on a keyboard. Hitting a C note on a piano and hitting a C# note sound the same except for the pitch. Hitting an open G on guitar does not sound the same as hitting a G# on the first fret. The timbre changes as well as the pitch. So, the same applies to chord changes. I'm pretty sure it makes a bigger difference on guitar than it does on a keyboard simply because voicings change, and like I said, fretted notes SOUND different than open notes on a guitar.
I think what you're talking about when you mention keyboard players playing in much more difficult keys because it sounds better, applies to the song itself sounding better in that key. I don't think it has to do with just the piano sounding better in that key, but the piece of music itself.
Last edited:
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
That's what I thought Rob meant. It's what keyboardists usually mean, not so much the sound of the instrument, the sound of the piece. Most pianists I know have been classically trained and it's notable that in much 'classical' music, the key is an important part of the title ~ if Mozart wrote his "Divertimento no.17 in D Major", it's important that it's not played in C major or Eb major as far as the cognoscenti is concerned. So it's hard for pianists to get away from that kind of thinking. Whereas in popular music, songs are often tried in different keys and seem more about accommodating the vocalist and their range. Half the time, I couldn't tell you if a cover version was done in a different key. And I wouldn't care either.
But I find keyboardists definitely have a mystique attached to keys, the way others might with the whole major=happy / minor=sad conundrum.
rob aylestone
Moderator
It's a variation and result of the evolution of pianos - Up to Bach's day, pianos had a different tuning that meant serious problems when you played in a different key - real 'out of tuneness' - but the new method of tuning them meant key changes were possible, as the new tunings meant no nasty clashes, but no 'perfect' tuning either. For those with good ears, this is why those weird key signatures were chosen, because they worked better in that key. Nowadays we pick accompaniment keys to suit the singer, or select transposing instrument friendly keys so the poor saxophonist or brass players don't have to play in the nastier keys - some of which actually stop you playing certain phrases the way they should sound. Guitarists like E, A and D for the open strings, yet the sax players end up with loads of multi-fingered tricky fingerings.
We've also got the poor people with perfect pitch who can't be in the same room as the guitarist who tuned by ear and is playing half way between E and Eb!
Quite a few pop music composers like certain keys, and seem to like black, rather than white notes!
Some keys really do sound better on the piano!
We've also got the poor people with perfect pitch who can't be in the same room as the guitarist who tuned by ear and is playing half way between E and Eb!
Quite a few pop music composers like certain keys, and seem to like black, rather than white notes!
Some keys really do sound better on the piano!
Last edited:
KristinaBrooke
New member
*Not to nitpick, but there were no pianos in Bach's day. There was piano's predecessor, the harpsichord.*
As far as singing flat and sharp keys, I suppose I have never thought about it. I just sing with whatever key I am in.
Perhaps thinking less about the technicalities would help. Just listen for the key being played, and sing along with that. Practicing your scales everyday may also help you to be more comfortable when switching scales.
Really, the amount of emphasis you are putting on flat/sharp keys versus regular keys is probably stifling you, and holding you back.
As far as singing flat and sharp keys, I suppose I have never thought about it. I just sing with whatever key I am in.
Perhaps thinking less about the technicalities would help. Just listen for the key being played, and sing along with that. Practicing your scales everyday may also help you to be more comfortable when switching scales.
Really, the amount of emphasis you are putting on flat/sharp keys versus regular keys is probably stifling you, and holding you back.
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
Well I'll be danged. I never knew that.
I just did a quick look in Wiki, and noted that they were coming in as JSB was going out. This interested me: "Silbermann showed Johann Sebastian Bach one of his early instruments in the 1730s, but Bach did not like it at that time, claiming that the higher notes were too soft to allow a full dynamic range. Although this earned him some animosity from Silbermann, the criticism was apparently heeded. Bach did approve of a later instrument he saw in 1747, and even served as an agent in selling Silbermann's pianos.[8]"
Piano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
rob aylestone
Moderator
A pedantic, pedant if we are going that way, bach's preferred instrument was the clavichord, because unlike the harpsichord, it can respond to how hard you hit the keys, harpsichords pluck, clavichords hammer. From the reproduction one I heard, Bach should probably have invented the microphone and PA system at the same time!
There is loads of stuff on how he tuned his keyboards but few people agree. Some have spent their careers researching why he used certain keys.
Sadly, many singers who learned their skill themselves don't explore keys. Especially when they use tracks. You see it on the voice/bgt/voice where boys get given girl songs and vice versa in the original keys and struggle. When one was supposedly being coached by Jessie wotsit she breezed in on the last day after the people had been working on songs all week, and one asked her if they could drop the key down a bit, and when the Pianist did, JJ was amazed. Even an excellent singer cannot sing well if the song goes out of their range, or requires them to suddenly switch to their upper voice. This is different from the piano key thing. There, it's the tiny pitch errors that help or hinder. With a singer, it's basic stuff like that loud high or low note that really needs to ring out, and can't because it's in F Major instead of Bb!
There is loads of stuff on how he tuned his keyboards but few people agree. Some have spent their careers researching why he used certain keys.
Sadly, many singers who learned their skill themselves don't explore keys. Especially when they use tracks. You see it on the voice/bgt/voice where boys get given girl songs and vice versa in the original keys and struggle. When one was supposedly being coached by Jessie wotsit she breezed in on the last day after the people had been working on songs all week, and one asked her if they could drop the key down a bit, and when the Pianist did, JJ was amazed. Even an excellent singer cannot sing well if the song goes out of their range, or requires them to suddenly switch to their upper voice. This is different from the piano key thing. There, it's the tiny pitch errors that help or hinder. With a singer, it's basic stuff like that loud high or low note that really needs to ring out, and can't because it's in F Major instead of Bb!
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I'm not really a fan of pitch shifters. They sound weird on vocals to me. Actually, recording vocals at different speeds is a good example of how things can sound pretty ropey on their own, but when put together, the whole is definitely greater than the sum of the parts or whatever the saying is !
That's something I got into a few years back. I like detuning a 12 string {even using a double drop tuning with it} then putting a capo on, just for some alternative sonics because I'm a less than average guitarist at best. Putting this opposite a 6 string brings a nice subtle shimmer.
I don't think ryann29's problem was inability to hit notes in detuned keys. I think he was just curious. Sometimes, we get these notions and because it's primarily musicians on the forum, it's as good a place as any to test the waters.
That's twice in a few days you've been danged !
You've really got to stop listening to too much Ted Nugent.
KristinaBrooke
New member
Well aren't you full of peaches, GrimmTraveler, "because it's primarily musicians on the forum"... are you assuming I am not a real musician?
My point was that if you practice all your scales (and you can include more exotic ones too) that you will train your ears and vocal chords, making hard changes easier. If you are a good vocalist, and have a good grasp of keys, intervals, and relative pitch, hitting any notes within your range should come naturally to you. Practicing harmonies also helps.
If he has a natural talent, then practicing all these things, rather then thinking about the technicalities while singing, would help him much more, imho.
My point was that if you practice all your scales (and you can include more exotic ones too) that you will train your ears and vocal chords, making hard changes easier. If you are a good vocalist, and have a good grasp of keys, intervals, and relative pitch, hitting any notes within your range should come naturally to you. Practicing harmonies also helps.
If he has a natural talent, then practicing all these things, rather then thinking about the technicalities while singing, would help him much more, imho.
KristinaBrooke
New member
For a more direct answer to the actual question:
"But I was wondering, is it harder to hit notes correctly in these scales/keys than in a normal key (Eb vs E), range aside? Or is still the same exact deal, only a half step lower?"
Yes, they are the exact same thing. They are the same intervals. The change in intervals comes when you compare major and minor keys.
If you can sing one major key, you should be able to sing all of the major keys in your range, because the intervals are the same. Same goes for minor keys.
There also is no difference in this theory between instruments. If you play scales on the guitar, you will find the intervals to be the same in major keys, and the same in minor keys, as they are on the piano.
In otherwords, don't let a new scale intimidate you. Treat is just as you would any other key.
"But I was wondering, is it harder to hit notes correctly in these scales/keys than in a normal key (Eb vs E), range aside? Or is still the same exact deal, only a half step lower?"
Yes, they are the exact same thing. They are the same intervals. The change in intervals comes when you compare major and minor keys.
If you can sing one major key, you should be able to sing all of the major keys in your range, because the intervals are the same. Same goes for minor keys.
There also is no difference in this theory between instruments. If you play scales on the guitar, you will find the intervals to be the same in major keys, and the same in minor keys, as they are on the piano.
In otherwords, don't let a new scale intimidate you. Treat is just as you would any other key.
Farview
Well-known member
Also remember that someone came up with flats and sharps as a way of organizing the whole thing. The sandard could, just as easily, been ABCDEFGHIJKL instead of what we have. All the keys on a piano could uave been white as well.
There is nothing strange or magical about sharps and flats, it's just the way they are named.
There is nothing strange or magical about sharps and flats, it's just the way they are named.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I understood what your point was. I didn't and don't disagree with it. I didn't even comment on it.
No, I'm not. Never have been. I don't like peaches. Well, unless it's that song by the Stranglers......
By the way, it's one 'm' and two 'll's.
Not at all. I don't know how you arrived at that. I was simply pointing out that as it's a musical question on a forum full of musicians, it is as good a place as any, better probably, to ask questions that one might be puzzled about.
I made no comment or assumption about whether you are a musician ~ I simply emphasized that ryann29 is one.