Singing Flat/Sharp Keys vs 'normal' Keys

R

ryannn29

New member
A lot of people including myself downtune to Eb or use other flat tunings (or sharp, both can be the same obviously; Eb = D#) to make a key's scale within range. But I was wondering, is it harder to hit notes correctly in these scales/keys than in a normal key (Eb vs E), range aside? Or is still the same exact deal, only a half step lower?

I guess since a scale like Eb is considered a flat scale, I have this idea that's in between a D & E, and therefore its harder to hit an "in betweenie", but I'm guessing that the whole flat/sharp keys/scales are more of just markers and are an illusion, rather than the notes themselves actually existing as a flat or sharp note.

Hopefully you guys get what I'm saying haha....
 
To me that's an odd notion. The way I see it is you sing to the pitches and chord centers you hear around you. If everyone was tuned a bit one way or the other you still shoot for the same, whether you knew that was the case or not.
 
Everybody has a particular vocal range, and consequently a variety of keys that their range fits into comfortably, and keys that cause them to stretch the boundaries of their range.

When you are singing in a key that suits your range, it makes no difference whether it is sharp, flat or natural. The task then is for the singer to be able to master pitch.

The idea that Eb, say, is an "in-betweenie" is an idea that you can safely cast aside. The way keys are named is a convention.
 
gecko zzed said:
Everybody has a particular vocal range, and consequently a variety of keys that their range fits into comfortably, and keys that cause them to stretch the boundaries of their range.

When you are singing in a key that suits your range, it makes no difference whether it is sharp, flat or natural. The task then is for the singer to be able to master pitch.

The idea that Eb, say, is an "in-betweenie" is an idea that you can safely cast aside. The way keys are named is a convention.
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Ah, now that's a relief. I never thought that it was for sure what I've called an "in betweenie" but at the same time, wasn't sure and so I've been seeing it that way. Glad to hear that it's not so that I just play whatever key without the odd notion I've conceived due to our naming conventions. Thanks for the response!
 
Yeah, it all makes little difference. I remember years ago, singing in church meetings, to spice up some songs that we thought were kind of blah, I'd start us off say, at a low G and as we progressed to each next verse, we'd jump up a tone or sometimes a semitone. Once you'd hit the first note of the sequence, your mind and voice naturally adjusted. You'd maybe really be straining by the time you got to the high G.
Over the years, I've learned a lot about about singing in different sharps and flats because I've always and still do use varispeed both for lead, harmony and backing vocals. I usually treble or quad track backing vocals and I learned long ago that you get fantastic textures {two or three people can sound like 8 or 12} by tracking each one at a different speed so you regularly jump between sharps, flats and sometimes, keys that don't even exist, depending on where the varispeed wheel lands.
 
grimtraveller said:
..Over the years, I've learned a lot about about singing in different sharps and flats because I've always and still do use varispeed both for lead, harmony and backing vocals. I usually treble or quad track backing vocals and I learned long ago that you get fantastic textures {two or three people can sound like 8 or 12} by tracking each one at a different speed so you regularly jump between sharps, flats and sometimes, keys that don't even exist, depending on where the varispeed wheel lands.
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That's a cool idea. Along the lines of the shifting ahlah Eventide's and such!
 
Some keys do suit the song, and changing them alters the feel - especially if you have a real piano, where it's quite important what the key is. If you are playing guitars and other electronic instruments then playing in one key or another has less impact, and a greater benefit to the singer. I must admit to be a bit lazy and I play sax reasonably well, and I rather like sax key friendly songs, so playing a song in F works better for me than playing it in E, even though it's just a semi-tone.
 
The only thing that would make something harder to sing would be your vocal range. Your voice doesn't know if it is singing a sharp or flat.

all the notes that exist is sharp and flat keys are the same ones that exist in natural keys. There are only 12 notes in an octave, if you can hit them all, you can sing in any key in that octave.
 
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rob aylestone said:
Some keys do suit the song, and changing them alters the feel - especially if you have a real piano, where it's quite important what the key is. If you are playing guitars and other electronic instruments then playing in one key or another has less impact
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I don't agree with this. Changing keys on the piano doesn't affect the sound of the actual instrument. It might make it harder or easier to play because of having to hit more/less black keys, but the "sound" of the instrument is the same and it's all relative. But changing keys on guitar affects the sound of the instrument a lot more and will even make some things a lot more difficult to play because of open strings.Moving a song from A to A# on guitar affects the "sound" of the instrument a lot more than making the same key change on piano, and affects how you approach playing the song a lot more because what was an open string now becomes a note on the first fret. It gets even crazier of you want to go from an A to an A flat. Much bigger difference than just moving your hands over on a piano.

Another example is going from let's say an Emaj to a Dmaj. On a piano, you can do that and keep the voicing exactly the same, just moving everything down 2 semi-tones. On a guitar going from an open E to an open D changes the voicing and order of the notes in the chord drastically. It ends up "Sounding" different. With a piano, it sounds exactly the same, just down a whole tone.
 
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Farview said:
The only thing that would make something harder to sing would be your vocal range. Your voice doesn't know if it is singing a sharp or flat.
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Exactly. Like Grim was saying, your brain adjust as soon as you hit that first or second note. Your voice has no idea if it's singing a black key or a white key. Notes are all relative to each other.
 
rob aylestone said:
Some keys do suit the song, and changing them alters the feel - especially if you have a real piano, where it's quite important what the key is. If you are playing guitars and other electronic instruments then playing in one key or another has less impact
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RAMI said:
Changing keys on the piano doesn't affect the sound of the actual instrument. It might make it harder or easier to play because of having to hit more/less black keys, but the "sound" of the instrument is the same and it's all relative. But changing keys on guitar affects the sound of the instrument a lot more and will even make some things a lot more difficult to play because of open strings.
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This is one of those strange episodes where I agree with both opposing points or perhaps more to the point, I can fully embrace what both Rob and RAMI are saying and can see the merits of both.
I have noticed over the years that piano and saxophone players have tended to be the ones that equate the feel of a song with it's key and would be the ones most reluctant to change the key. I think keys and their mystique are so ingrained in piano players from day one and so aligned to their classical training that it's extremely difficult for them {or at least the ones I've met and played with} to see beyond that whereas a guitarist will just change the key and run with it. It's interesting seeing the difference in approach between someone using a capo and someone using a transpose button !
 
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