Zoom H4n - best placement in a jam

KindaScratchy

New member
Hi folks:

I use a Zoom H4n for in-home and field recording. At home, I use an external condenser mic set-up, but in the field, I generally use the built-in mics. Some of the field recording is done at bluegrass jams where the musicians sit in a circle. I'm trying to find the best placement for the Zoom in that situation.

I've figured out that, ideally, the mics should be pointed at the sound source, but in a bluegrass jam, the sound is coming from 360 degrees. My question is what is the best place to position the recorder to capture the lead vocals (which are stationary for each song but change direction as people take turns leading during the jam), breaks/solos (which come from different directions during each song, and the group as a whole.

I've tried placing the recorder on the floor pointing straight up and on a mic stand, also pointing straight up, with varying results. I think that when it's pointed straight up, placing it low is better. But in either case sometimes the sound is muddy or vocals or instruments are too soft.

I'm wondering if it would be better to place the recorder higher and angled up or even horizontal, and keep turning it with each song to point at the lead singer. The latter option obviously wouldn't help capture instruments taking breaks (solos)...I'm a participant in the jam so I can't keep turning it during a song.

What would you do? Any and all advice is appreciated.
 
My first thought probably doesn't fit into your situation, but ya never know.

Are any of these jams large enough to have a house mixer feeding speakers to an audience? If so, you could ask to get a feed from that board. Now that may burn Phantom Power.

Other than that, maybe use two H4n recorders. If you're somewhat familiar with the way things roll in a bluegrass jam, you could already have one H4n pointed at or near the next instrument when the one you're covering hands off to them.
 
Last edited:
Hi folks:

I use a Zoom H4n for in-home and field recording. At home, I use an external condenser mic set-up, but in the field, I generally use the built-in mics. Some of the field recording is done at bluegrass jams where the musicians sit in a circle. I'm trying to find the best placement for the Zoom in that situation.

First off, that is one little sweet recorder!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I own the H6 as well as a Tascam DR-40. The internal mics are best if you want to just sit and jamb to record ideas or to pick up some ambiance sound to blend in with the other tracks. They also work very nice for close up acoustics. The last time I did it like that was for a interview I did inside of a somewhat noisy restaurant.

I used dynamics up close for the interview with the recorder on 6' xlr cables. This removed any mic bleed from one track to the other and I used the internal mics, to pick up the customers eating in the restaurant. Than all I had to do was mix down the two tracks. The interview was crystal clear and the BG audio was at a very pleasant clear level as well after I blended the two tracks. Your best case would be to get the group to sit in a semi circle instead of a full circle.

I've figured out that, ideally, the mics should be pointed at the sound source, but in a bluegrass jam, the sound is coming from 360 degrees. My question is what is the best place to position the recorder to capture the lead vocals (which are stationary for each song but change direction as people take turns leading during the jam), breaks/solos (which come from different directions during each song, and the group as a whole.

You are correct. You always want to have your mic facing the source of the audio. What you really need, is a mic with a Omnidirectional polar pattern. This will pick up sound coming from 360 degrees. You could place it dead center of the group, at face level and it will most likely, rock your world. IMHO, mic placement is 90% of obtaining a professional sound. You can read a great articial concerning what different mic pick up patterns are best suited for by clicking here.

I've tried placing the recorder on the floor pointing straight up and on a mic stand, also pointing straight up, with varying results. I think that when it's pointed straight up, placing it low is better. But in either case sometimes the sound is muddy or vocals or instruments are too soft.

Low frequencies tend to build up in corners as well as the floor depending on the covering. If you have ever noticed mics placed for kick drums, they usually have low cut switches on them to handle some of this mud or they are designed with that in mind.

I'm wondering if it would be better to place the recorder higher and angled up or even horizontal, and keep turning it with each song to point at the lead singer. The latter option obviously wouldn't help capture instruments taking breaks (solos)...I'm a participant in the jam so I can't keep turning it during a song.

If you use the omni, it would be like me using my chicken rotisserie device on my barrel smoker, set it and forget it baby, come back and check it in 6 hrs! However, you may not want to use as much sauce as I do! NYKTF!
:D:laughings::D
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the responses! Bluegrass jams typically do not have any sound system at all because it's not a performance. Sometimes there are people listening outside the circle, but it's not an audience so no need for amplification.

I'm very familiar with how bluegrass jams work, but the challenge is that there's no set order in which instruments take the breaks. It's usually up to the person leading the given song. Sometimes it goes around the circle or sometimes it hopscotches around because the leader wants to alternate instruments.

Funny you should say "set it and forget it," Mack. I was going to say that. :) I'm a participant, so I'm playing an instrument, too, and therefore can't manipulate the recorder. I have to just set it and forget it.

The jam I record most often is held indoors in a large room with a lot of reverb. My logic for placing the recorder low is that maybe the sound coming out of the instruments and the vocals would reach the mics before sound reflected off the ceiling and walls. But I don't know enough about acoustics to know if that's right. Maybe, instead, it would be better to place it high and point the recorder down?

The two recorder idea is intriguing. Might look into borrowing one to try it. But the omnidirectional mic idea is probably the most likely solution.

I'm recording only for my own use and to share with a few friends so that we can analyze our playing and singing in order to make improvements. It's not for broadcast or any other type of public consumption. Nonetheless, the better the recording, the better we can hear what we need to hear.

I love my H4n, BTW.

Thanks for your help! :thumbs up:
 
The jam I record most often is held indoors in a large room with a lot of reverb. My logic for placing the recorder low is that maybe the sound coming out of the instruments and the vocals would reach the mics before sound reflected off the ceiling and walls. But I don't know enough about acoustics to know if that's right. Maybe, instead, it would be better to place it high and point the recorder down?

That would be a better option than having it low. You also should know that it takes sound around 4.9 secs to go a mile. If you are in a boxy room with no sound treatment, it is real hard to keep reflections from being recorded as well. Dynamic mics will help avoid this the best. You could also use a gate, but if it is set up wrong, it will trash your recording. This will allow the main audio to go through but block out the lower volume levels, such as reflections.

I'm recording only for my own use and to share with a few friends so that we can analyze our playing and singing in order to make improvements. It's not for broadcast or any other type of public consumption. Nonetheless, the better the recording, the better we can hear what we need to hear.

The next time you do a recording, shoot me a PM and I will send you my Dropbox link. If you send me the wav files, I will see if I can build you a fx chain to get the audio as clean as possible. It won't take 5 or 10 mins to do so. Just a thought.
 
I've been in some small bluegrass clubs that mixed out to Bose 901's dangling from the ceiling, so you never can tell when it's available. Bluegrass sounded good there.

Good luck with this.
 
You might look for a used Zoom H2n or older H2 and use the 4ch surround mode. I've used my H2 in just those kinds of situations.

If the jams are primarily inside and stationary I'd probably go with an omni though.
 
Yeah, if you can't get an omni going, putting it on the ceiling pointed down is probably your best bet. The higher, the better. (Well... to a limit obviously... I assume you're not in a massive amphitheater?)

I would keep it away from boundaries, including the ceiling. A floor covered with carpet or a rug isn't as much of a problem, so aiming it down seems like the best option. A boundary mic on the ceiling might be a good option.
 
Thanks for the responses, everyone! This is all very helpful.

Next time, I might try mounting the recorder as high as possible on a fully-extended boom mic stand, and point it down. I can't mount it on the ceiling because the jam is held in a restaurant and the owner probably wouldn't like me screwing anything into the ceiling. :)

I think the best solution, though, is to get an omnidirectional external mic. Can anyone recommend a decent one at a reasonable price? I'm assuming it should be a condenser as it won't be feasible to close mic any one person or instrument...it will have to sit in the middle of the group. All players will likely be at least six feet away.

Thanks again.
 
I think the best solution, though, is to get an omnidirectional external mic. Can anyone recommend a decent one at a reasonable price?

Shure SM 58. $99.99.

I'm assuming it should be a condenser as it won't be feasible to close mic any one person or instrument...it will have to sit in the middle of the group. All players will likely be at least six feet away. Thanks again.

Well now, your assumption may not be correct. ;-) I sent the PM back to ya so I am going to list my opinion here. I recommended the Shure SM 58 due to it's unidirectional (cardioid) pickup pattern, "A unidirectional (cardioid) pickup pattern isolates the main sound source while minimizing unwanted background noise". Since we know it is going to be placed above the group and pointing down, it will reject any slap back/room flutter that will no doubt, build up and reflect from the ceiling.

If the owner would agree, you can use a 1/2 decorative hook, to be placed dead center of the group. Something like pictured below. You can find them at any hardware store. Once you have the hook in place, it is a simple matter of raising it, or lowering it via the cable, it get the best signal input into the H4.

If no hook is allowed, simply use a boom arm mic stand that has a min of a 7 foot reach and set the stand, dead center of the group, (My Recommendation), with the SM 58 pointing straight down. As with the ceiling hook, adjust the stand to the highest level, while still maintaining the proper input signal as recommended by your H4.


You need your audio levels to be bouncing between a -20 and -12 for your H4. The meters need to move as close as possible, between these two numbers. Do Not Set It To Record In The Auto Mode. If you have any questions, just answer back.


 
Thanks for the advice. I have a Neumann TLM 102 condenser mic, which has a cardioid pattern. I use it for in-home recording of my band and solo recordings. I also use it for live sound for my band. Would that serve the same purpose as the Shure SM 58?

Mounting a hook on the ceiling is definitely not an option. The proprietor can be a bit grouchy, so I wouldn't want to propose that idea.

I have a couple of boom mic stands. I don't know if either one has a seven foot reach, but I'll extend as far as possible. Next time, I'll position it as dead center as I can and point the mic (internal or external) straight down.

I am curious, however, why pointing straight down is better than pointing straight up. Seems to me that it would be the same thing...sound bouncing between two horizontal surfaces.
 
Thanks for the advice. I have a Neumann TLM 102 condenser mic, which has a cardioid pattern. I use it for in-home recording of my band and solo recordings. I also use it for live sound for my band. Would that serve the same purpose as the Shure SM 58?

No, it would be worst, than if you just used your internal mics. Your mic cost around $800.00 and is very well sought after, to eliminate the very thing you want to do. Every one on the back side of this mic would be recorded at such a lower level, they may not even be understandable in the mix down.

The attenuation of unwanted rear sound has been optimized. Off-axis sounds are rendered naturally while isolation is increased.
For $800.00, it is sure to do the job it was designed for.

I have a couple of boom mic stands. I don't know if either one has a seven foot reach, but I'll extend as far as possible.

I designed this for something similar that you are doing. This will allow you to set the base outside of your circle and pin point the center of the recording area with ease. $20.00 and you can set it up in 2 mins.

View attachment 100845


Next time, I'll position it as dead center as I can and point the mic (internal or external) straight down.

I would use an external designed for this type of recording, as mentioned above. You can use a condenser if you like, just make sure the pattern can record 360 degrees.

I am curious, however, why pointing straight down is better than pointing straight up. Seems to me that it would be the same thing...sound bouncing between two horizontal surfaces.

Although commonsense would back your line of thinking, it done not work like that with your situation. If the restaurant has carpeting, it will remove/trap/suck the higher frequencies right out of the recording. That's why you never see carpet in Professional Recording Studios.

It will also pick up any shuffling from players, feet noises as well as any rumbles coming from the floor its self. Outside traffic, low frequencies from the kitchen, water running through pipes when toilets are flushed. I really can't say for sure without seeing the location. But like I said, if this is just for the players to review and no one else, it really makes no difference.
 
Back
Top