what mic pre to buy?

[keith.rogers]

I get a lot of clipping crap going on. I'm not a violent strummer by any stretch of the imagination but I do like to play with dynamics, by the time I get a satisfactory signal/wave form on the DAW, the mic pre is up so high that anything greater than a gentle nudge causes the dreaded 'red light' to come on. ...

If you're recording 24-bit, you don't actually need to see a wave form. Just slap a metering plugin in GB and watch the peaks there. (I checked my GB and see I have something called TBProAudio's mvMeter - Logic has a couple digital ones but not GB, alas.) You can always put a Gain plugin on the track if you really have to bring it up after recording, but the 24-bitness of it should give you all the dynamic range you need to manipulate it.

But, of course, you can put a compressor on going in!

 

[ecc83]

Aha! A flaw in the Berry AIs is revealed. The specification shows..

Max mic input, -4dBu pretty poor.

Max line input, +20dBu pretty good, will ALMOST cope with 'pro' gear.

Max instru input is an APALLING -3dBu !That's only a smell over half a volt rms. Even the wimpiest, plywood Strat on the planet will overload that.

Of course, I know why they do it. (the low guitar headroom) Having a lot of gain in that section impresses TF out of the know-nothing-newb."Cor, just gentle picking and I get a lovely waveform!"

One solution would be to use a buffered pedal "off" and drive the vastly higher headroom line input. Oh, and be careful what you put back into the insert. Max in, +3dBu or a tad over a volt. Most anything a bit "tasty/pro'ish' will overdrive that. Mind you, it is normal to run insets 'unity gain'.

Dave.

 

[keith.rogers]

Aha! A flaw in the Berry AIs is revealed. The specification shows..

Max mic input, -4dBu pretty poor.

Max line input, +20dBu pretty good, will ALMOST cope with 'pro' gear.

Max instru input is an APALLING -3dBu !That's only a smell over half a volt rms. Even the wimpiest, plywood Strat on the planet will overload that.

Of course, I know why they do it. (the low guitar headroom) Having a lot of gain in that section impresses TF out of the know-nothing-newb."Cor, just gentle picking and I get a lovely waveform!"

One solution would be to use a buffered pedal "off" and drive the vastly higher headroom line input. Oh, and be careful what you put back into the insert. Max in, +3dBu or a tad over a volt. Most anything a bit "tasty/pro'ish' will overdrive that. Mind you, it is normal to run insets 'unity gain'.

Dave.

I hope that -3dBu is a typo. Any chance it should have been dBV? Otherwise it's ridiculous. Seems like we'd have heard a very loud scream about this by now. (I did notice that Steinberg used dBV for the UR22 max spec, and it was -4.)

Not sure .5v is on the low side, from what I've googled, but the lowest current Focusrite instrument input I found was +12dBu (+18 on the new Clarett USB models). Even my relatively ancient [FW] Saffire Pro 26 is +8dBu. So, obviously they expect more than .5v!

 

[bluesfordan]

Let's put it this way, what would be a better AI (I feel weird typing that because to me AI = Artificial Intelligence), without getting into the expensive pro stuff. Scarlett? USB version of UA stuff (wish a new computer was in the offing but unless fire theft or natural disaster occurs, not likely for a very long time), Focusrite? I've been trying not to think about them too much because GAS is a terrible thing and I'm inordinately susceptible to it.

 

[miroslav]

Let's put it this way, what would be a better AI (I feel weird typing that because to me AI = Artificial Intelligence)...

TBH...I don't think anyone involved with audio recording calls them "AIs"...because it's understood that it's an *audio* interface.
So just say "interface"...that way you don't have to feel weird.

 

[keith.rogers]

I'm probably guilty of using AI - it's just shorter than typing "interface" .

The short answer is that an interface "upgrade" is usually at the end of the list of things change.

I believe most folks think that in the lower end, and that includes IMO Behri UPhoria through Focusrite Scarlett, there's just not a lot of audible difference to be had making moves in that range. Of course, if you need more channels, MIDI inputs, more outputs, ADAT capability, et al, buy something to fix those gaps. But unless there's really a fault, you should skip the interface to address other specific needs, e.g., a preamp with enough gain for a mic you have that doesn't work with your interface, or variable impedance to handle your odd, vintage or otherwise mic, etc. Otherwise, save your shekels to move up into more pro-level equipment, and then you still might not hear a difference if you haven't addressed your recording space or have mics that will benefit from that upgrade.

 

[Nola]

Best setup I've come up with for a small home recording space is a cheap preamp with a lot of inserts, like Focusrite 18i8. Then, get a couple nice preamps that compliment one another (like a transformer based and a tube) that you can plug into the line inputs. Therefore, if you need 2 or more mics you use the FR. If you are recording one track at a time and want the nicer pre, you go with one of the others. This gives the best diversity for the lowest cost and space. All that said, you're not going to notice a huge difference in preamps. There is some difference, but it's not night and day, and it's more once tracks start building up. It's also most noticeable to me recording bass. For whatever reason bass sounds much better through an excellent DI/pre than the cheaper FR. Guitars and other things not as much difference. You might just have GAS and want some gear so make sure it's not that, too.

 

[bluesfordan]

I'm probably guilty of using AI - it's just shorter than typing "interface" .

The short answer is that an interface "upgrade" is usually at the end of the list of things change.

I believe most folks think that in the lower end, and that includes IMO Behri UPhoria through Focusrite Scarlett, there's just not a lot of audible difference to be had making moves in that range. Of course, if you need more channels, MIDI inputs, more outputs, ADAT capability, et al, buy something to fix those gaps. But unless there's really a fault, you should skip the interface to address other specific needs, e.g., a preamp with enough gain for a mic you have that doesn't work with your interface, or variable impedance to handle your odd, vintage or otherwise mic, etc. Otherwise, save your shekels to move up into more pro-level equipment, and then you still might not hear a difference if you haven't addressed your recording space or have mics that will benefit from that upgrade.

Thank you. I believe you might have helped me find the crux of the matter. That is a very valid point about the recording space and the mics. At present the recording space is the biggest issue and regretfully the most unlikely to be resolved. I do the vast majority of my recording directly, with the occasional foray into vox and acoustic guitar, which I have no intention of pursuing any more than for novelty purposes. The focus of my inquiry should be on how do I get control of my input signal in a fashion that I can play without having to strum on eggshells, so to speak.

For the price of a Hosa STP202-2 cable, I'm going to put a compressor into the insert of a channel and see what that brings to the table.

 

[bluesfordan]

. You might just have GAS and want some gear so make sure it's not that, too.

That's not true, I can quit any time I want to !! Er, ahem, but really, why would I want to ?

I'm doing mostly electric guitar with the plan to bring bass online when I get that project completed. It is the diversion of gear money to the workshop project that is my albatross right now. I hear you about the nice preamp for the bass. That was part of my reasoning behind getting a better pre, and I was thinking with an eye to the future once my garage workshop project is done.

 

[ecc83]

I hope that -3dBu is a typo. Any chance it should have been dBV? Otherwise it's ridiculous. Seems like we'd have heard a very loud scream about this by now. (I did notice that Steinberg used dBV for the UR22 max spec, and it was -4.)

Not sure .5v is on the low side, from what I've googled, but the lowest current Focusrite instrument input I found was +12dBu (+18 on the new Clarett USB models). Even my relatively ancient [FW] Saffire Pro 26 is +8dBu. So, obviously they expect more than .5v!

Even if they meant "dBV" Keith that only give a paltry 0.7V. My NI KA6 has a max high Z input of +8.4dBu, 2V rms which is close to 6V pk-pk which about the best you would get from a really hot humbucker.

The Focusrite 2i2 was known for poor git' headroom and I see that is now +4dBu (1.22V rms) on the Genll models. Not generous but probably ok in most situations.

OP! How's your soldering? It is quite a simple task to put couple of jacks and resistors in a tin. If you want to have a go, yell and I'll post a picky.

Compressor in the insert? Depends what is clipping. If it is the feed to the converter it will help, if it is the actual high Z pre amp? No.

Dave.

 

[bluesfordan]

Even if they meant "dBV" Keith that only give a paltry 0.7V. My NI KA6 has a max high Z input of +8.4dBu, 2V rms which is close to 6V pk-pk which about the best you would get from a really hot humbucker.

The Focusrite 2i2 was known for poor git' headroom and I see that is now +4dBu (1.22V rms) on the Genll models. Not generous but probably ok in most situations.

OP! How's your soldering? It is quite a simple task to put couple of jacks and resistors in a tin. If you want to have a go, yell and I'll post a picky.

Compressor in the insert? Depends what is clipping. If it is the feed to the converter it will help, if it is the actual high Z pre amp? No.

Dave.

In a past life I was a electro-mechanical assembler and spent hours at a time with a soldering iron in hand, I had mil spec training and everything but the Class A certification. That said, what's the assembly you're talking about, a DI box of some sort?

 

[Tadpui]

From what I've read in the thread so far, your current interface is fine. If it's clipping, turn down the input gain. As was said above, you don't need to see the waveform. You just need to hear it when you play it back. Set your input gain so you get a frequent if not constant green light, and worry about bringing up the overall volume later. Use a gain plugin or VST compressor if the faders won't bring up the volume enough.

 

[ecc83]

In a past life I was a electro-mechanical assembler and spent hours at a time with a soldering iron in hand, I had mil spec training and everything but the Class A certification. That said, what's the assembly you're talking about, a DI box of some sort?

I am meaning a resistive attenuator. A series 820k Ohm and a 390k shunt, signal goes from the junction. I shall post schematic and layout drawing in'morning. That will reduce the level by about 12dB.

Tadpui. the low input headroom is at MINIMUM gain! Maybe you meant back off the guitar's level? That will work of course but I know folks don't like doing it because it can lead to tonal changes.

Off to me pit.

Dave.

 

[Tadpui]

Tadpui. the low input headroom is at MINIMUM gain! Maybe you meant back off the guitar's level? That will work of course but I know folks don't like doing it because it can lead to tonal changes.

This is what I read above:

by the time I get a satisfactory signal/wave form on the DAW, the mic pre is up so high that anything greater than a gentle nudge causes the dreaded 'red light' to come on.

So turn down the gain and all should be good.

 

[ecc83]

Sorry for the crudity of the calligraphy!

The attenuator will insert a loss of about 12dB but the exact amount depends on the guitar's output impedance. The input Z is 1.1M.

N.B. The cable connecting the output jack to the high Z AI input needs to be kept very short, 1mtr max, preff 330mm because the output Z is high at about 280k and you will get HF loss on a long cable. Of course, you could dispense with the second jack and just have a flying lead.

Naturally it all needs to be in an earthed metal tin.

Dave.

 

[mixsit]

... by the time I get a satisfactory signal/wave form on the DAW, the mic pre is up so high that anything greater than a gentle nudge causes the dreaded 'red light' to come on.

Just to add, 0dBFS -max- or any level for that case, in all interface - converter / DAW app combinations are the same. Thus the record levels we we aim for are in the same general range regardless of the 'brands. I.e. averaging down around -18-20 or so, or whatever's needed to keep the peaks safe below clipping.

What you are seeing and talking about here is dependent on the app's waveform view zoom level. I understand totally wanting waveforms you can see to make edit decisions and such. But that has nothing to do with the recorded level you ought to shoot for.
Does this DAW app not have zoom?

 

[bluesfordan]

GB has something like zoom but it doesn't make the waveform any larger or easier to see. just stretched out or bunched up

 

[keith.rogers]

GB has something like zoom but it doesn't make the waveform any larger or easier to see. just stretched out or bunched up

I'm sure you know this, but if you double-click the region you get an expanded view in the bottom frame. Even something with peaks of -10dB or less is pretty visible for editing in that view. Not as nice as Logic's ability to expand just the waveform vertically, but better than working in the smaller track.

 

[mixsit]

I'm sure you know this, but if you double-click the region you get an expanded view in the bottom frame. Even something with peaks of -10dB or less is pretty visible for editing in that view. Not as nice as Logic's ability to expand just the waveform vertically, but better than working in the smaller track.

View attachment 102571

He's using Garageband is it?
Your track above 'bass seems pretty useful as is. -Maybe that's on the verge of clipping though?

 

[keith.rogers]

The two tracks with big wave forms are definitely pushing 0. That was done back in 2012 before I knew better