What is a good monitoring volume in headphones when recording?

M

Musicianaire

New member
I've been testing various mic positions and volume levels for recording one acoustic guitar and vocal, using a single RODE NT1-A mic. It is placed directly in front of me, 12-18" away, collarbone height. I've experimented with it placed slightly to my left and right, and with the mic tilted off axis (forward/backward) a few degrees either way.
I'm having a hard time with volume levels in the headphones. My goal is to not get any guitar and vocal bleed from outside the 'phones as I record. But turning up the volume enough to achieve that, makes the guitar sound unnatural to my ears (i.e. slight boominess, slight loss of definition), and my vocal seems to get lost in the mix. I can still hear my voice, but the guitar is louder. I'm having a hard time hearing a nice balance between the two.

Am I going own the wrong road, or is there something I'm just not thinking of?
 
Hey!
Everyone has their own preference with this.
For acoustic instruments and vocals my preference is to go with one ear off.
My left ear hears my real acoustic performance and my right hears the mix or backing.
To be honest, I usually just mute what I'm recording; I don't want to hear that in the cans at all.

The backing's usually very quiet so bleed isn't a concern. As long as I have a solid sense of the tempo and backing pitch, that's good enough for me.

An exception might be electric lead guitar. For that I'll usually just put the headphones on properly and hear it as part of the mix while I'm recording.


Not sure how much I like the idea of cranking the headphones to drown out the acoustic sound.
As you say, bleed is a concern, but I'd be much more concerned about your hearing! :eek:

I think maybe what you're describing is why I don't like having a complete headphone mix.
It never sounds 'right' as I'm singing/playing so I guess I just don't even try it anymore.
 
I suspect the problem is simply that the correct mic placement for balance on recording is allowing bone conduction to make your vocal sound prominent in your ears - being added to the the blend the mic captures. The roominess and lack of definition. Is this just while you sing and play, or is it in the recording? Single mic means compromise, and the need for lots of experimentation to get the balance and blend right. What's the recorded B&B like?
 
I think that’s an optimistic goal with a single mic, but it really sounds like you’ve got either some work still to do with the mic position or maybe consider trying some different headphones.

But reconsider what you’re trying to do. Work on getting a good recording first.
 
Would you consider recording the guitar and vocal separately?

Being a singer/songwriter, I feel most comfortable singing as I'm playing - especially with acoustic. I tried doing both simultaneously with one mic and was not satisfied with the results. So I finally recorded the guitar first and mouthed the vocals - virtually zero sound - along with it to keep me in sync. Then I recorded the vocal - that was the hard part because I've never gotten used to singing one of my songs without strumming my guitar at the same time - I felt very disconnected. Both tracks turned out way better than I had imagined. I was able to place the mic closer for each one and that made all the difference.

I recorded the guitar with the mic at around 18-inches and my vocal at 6-8 inches.
 
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What Spantini says - record the parts separately. Are you using closed back headphones? The only times I've done 1 mic acoustic + vocal is when I'm also doing a video (but want better sound than the camera's mic), its just a matter of finding the right mic position - usually about 3 feet in front of me. IF you don't have any acoustic treatment (bass traps) in the room, then having the mic too far away will get you bad room reflections.
 
mjbphotos said:
The only times I've done 1 mic acoustic + vocal is when I'm also doing a video (but want better sound than the camera's mic),
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I'm doing - should've mentioned that. My bad. And there is no acoustic treatment (yet), so I wouldn't want the mic too far away. Tried closed and open back headphones, but I find that the most comfortable sound I can get is when I turn down the headphone volume enough that I hear a small bit of the guitar & vocal outside the 'phones. The guitar isn't so prominent in my ears, but the vocal still seems low. Haven't tried recording it that way yet, so the result may be fine - just didn't want to waste time recording unless I felt it would be okay.
 
Musicianaire said:
My goal is to not get any guitar and vocal bleed from outside the 'phones as I record.
Click to expand...

Not understanding your motive here.
So you want the headphones to block any sound from the outside...and in order to do that, you're cranking the level into the phones...?

Why?

First off...even some of the pure isolation headphones that drummers tend to prefer, will not "soundproof" your ears...though certainly, that's one option, get a pair and see if it helps.
The real concern with headphone bleed is not about the sound outside coming into your ears...but to keep the sound inside the phones from bleeding into the mic, which is really only when doing vocals, since the mic and the phones are close to each other.

AFA a need to block out the sounds outside the phones...specifically the guitar and the vocals...I really think you're making a mistake trying to do that, especially for the vocals, because hearing some of that "outside voice" actually helps with pitch control and it will make your voice sound natural to you.
Try this...sing for a bit...and then stick your fingers in your ears sufficiently to block all the sound...now sing like that, and you can hear how unnatural your voice sounds. Many singers will actually remove one ear cup so they CAN hear their "outside voice"...because it helps them to sing more naturally.

AFA the guitar...I'm assuming it's an acoustic(?)....same thing, hearing that natural outside sound a little bit along with the headphone sound will make the guitar sound natural.

Bottom line...get use to the balance of both "outside" and "inside" sounds...and find a nice mix/blend. Also, you don't want to be concerned about the headphone sound/tone quality all that much...it's just a *cue mix* so you can follow the song...so don't use that to make critical judgments.

I prefer to use semi-open phones when I'm tracking for everything except vocals. I even use to use them for vocals often, because I don't crank the headphone volume up real loud.
Sometimes for electric guitars when I have the amp up real loud, I'll opt for closed-back phones instead...mainly as ear protection.
 
miroslav said:
...AFA a need to block out the sounds outside the phones...specifically the guitar and the vocals...I really think you're making a mistake trying to do that, especially for the vocals, because hearing some of that "outside voice" actually helps with pitch control and it will make your voice sound natural to you.
Try this...sing for a bit...and then stick your fingers in your ears sufficiently to block all the sound...now sing like that, and you can hear how unnatural your voice sounds. Many singers will actually remove one ear cup so they CAN hear their "outside voice"...because it helps them to sing more naturally.

AFA the guitar...I'm assuming it's an acoustic(?)....same thing, hearing that natural outside sound a little bit along with the headphone sound will make the guitar sound natural.

Bottom line...get use to the balance of both "outside" and "inside" sounds...and find a nice mix/blend. Also, you don't want to be concerned about the headphone sound/tone quality all that much...it's just a *cue mix* so you can follow the song...so don't use that to make critical judgments...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess I was hoping to hear only what the mic is hearing, so I know how it's going to sound (roughly). But the points you bring up make sense, and I really shouldn't think in that direction. The 'phones are more of a guide (which I knew, but was hoping to make them more than that.... silly moi).
 
Do a couple of test takes...and then you can sit down and listen to the playback and hear what the mic was hearing....make some adjustments...and you're good to go. :)
 
Musicianaire said:
That's exactly what I'm doing - should've mentioned that. My bad. And there is no acoustic treatment (yet), so I wouldn't want the mic too far away. Tried closed and open back headphones, but I find that the most comfortable sound I can get is when I turn down the headphone volume enough that I hear a small bit of the guitar & vocal outside the 'phones. The guitar isn't so prominent in my ears, but the vocal still seems low. Haven't tried recording it that way yet, so the result may be fine - just didn't want to waste time recording unless I felt it would be okay.
Click to expand...

If you're recording a video at the same time, do you really want it with headphones on? Like Miro said ^^^, just do a couple of test recordings (make note of the mic position).
 
In fairness, there are lots of videos with folks wearing headphones in videos, even if they're only recording a single track because they're often listening to a click (guilty!), if not something else. And, of course, those shots of single-take recordings of an ensemble will, as often as not, have players with headphones.

But, of course, for a live, camera-phone [real or effect] video, you'll probably want to skip them. (Been watching a bunch of Larkin Poe vids today - I'd like to know what they're doing besides some video processing. Sounds a little too good for a camera mic; but then, they're a very talented couple of ladies...)
 
Musicianaire said:
I don't feel I wasted time posting here. I hope I didn't waste your time forcing you to make such a comment. Feel better for trying to make me feel bad?
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LOL! Good for you. ;)

keith.rogers said:
In fairness, there are lots of videos with folks wearing headphones in videos, even if they're only recording a single track because they're often listening to a click (guilty!), if not something else. And, of course, those shots of single-take recordings of an ensemble will, as often as not, have players with headphones.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I took the wrong angle on this one.
My initial reply, Musicianaire, relates to how I use headphones when recording; As in, doing a keeper take.
It was more about hearing what you need to hear as a guide when tracking.
Really your question is about using headphones to hear how a recording will sound; Judging and tinkering with the setup.

Personally, I wouldn't do that unless the mic is on a loudass cab or a group in another room.
No matter how loud those headphones are, the playback is always going to sound different due to the absence of the original source.
 
Steenamaroo said:
Hey!
Everyone has their own preference with this.
For acoustic instruments and vocals my preference is to go with one ear off.
My left ear hears my real acoustic performance and my right hears the mix or backing.
To be honest, I usually just mute what I'm recording; I don't want to hear that in the cans at all.

The backing's usually very quiet so bleed isn't a concern. As long as I have a solid sense of the tempo and backing pitch, that's good enough for me.

An exception might be electric lead guitar. For that I'll usually just put the headphones on properly and hear it as part of the mix while I'm recording.


Not sure how much I like the idea of cranking the headphones to drown out the acoustic sound.
As you say, bleed is a concern, but I'd be much more concerned about your hearing! :eek:

I think maybe what you're describing is why I don't like having a complete headphone mix.
It never sounds 'right' as I'm singing/playing so I guess I just don't even try it anymore.
Click to expand...

This is basically exactly how I do it....very much need to hear vocals and acoustic guitar in the purest way...one headphone off...usually sending everything to one headphone so nothing leaks out of the can not on my ear. I've never been able to make a headphone mix where I can where both cans and get a super natural sound of my vocal or acoustic guitar. So in the end I gave up...I really need to be able to hear my voice and guitar exactly as they sound direct to ear...so the easiest way is one can off.
 
Volume level

Musicianaire said:
I've been testing various mic positions and volume levels for recording one acoustic guitar and vocal, using a single RODE NT1-A mic. It is placed directly in front of me, 12-18" away, collarbone height. I've experimented with it placed slightly to my left and right, and with the mic tilted off axis (forward/backward) a few degrees either way.
I'm having a hard time with volume levels in the headphones. My goal is to not get any guitar and vocal bleed from outside the 'phones as I record. But turning up the volume enough to achieve that, makes the guitar sound unnatural to my ears (i.e. slight boominess, slight loss of definition), and my vocal seems to get lost in the mix. I can still hear my voice, but the guitar is louder. I'm having a hard time hearing a nice balance between the two.

Am I going own the wrong road, or is there something I'm just not thinking of?
Click to expand...

For best results, you might consider the following: Who will be listening to the final result? At what volume will they be listening? On what equipment will they be listening? What do YOU want it to sound like? Volume is an important consideration because of the Fletcher-Munson effect-that is, as sounds get louder, the bass seems to become proportionally louder (and so does the treble to some extent). If you have an old amp with a "loudness" control or switch, it would compensate and increase the bass/treble at lower volumes and then back it off if you turned it up. The idea is that the mix would sound about the same at all volumes. If you know the music is going to be played loudly, try to mix it at a representative volume. Coffeehouse music would be one volume, Punk Country (???) would be another.
 
Monitoring to me is a personal preference. Find a blend that works for you and gives you the RECORDED sound you want and stick with it. I think it will be nearly impossible to not hear your acoustic guitar and voice outside of the headphones, so I don't know if that's a technique I would spend much time on. Plus I would think you would like to add some eq, compression or other effects after the fact, so the sound will probably not end up the same anyway. Not trying to tell you what to do, just speaking from experience.
 
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