Vintage Sounds on a Shoestring Budget

[Loxley]

Hey folks,

I've got some questions about recording with a very particular aesthetic in mind, but first, a little background. I have a post-punk solo project called 'Charlatan' (charlatansounds.com). In short, I sing, play guitar, and largely rely on synthesizers and drum machines to back me up. I recorded my last album at home and had an engineer mix and master it afterwards. The sounds that I obtained were pretty spot-on for what I was going for in that album, but now I'm shifting gears, writing differently, and conceptualizing my next album as a "what if I was sucked into a timewarp and had to lay down tracks in 1965" kind of garage band sound. I imagine it wouldn't sound unlike Dirty Beaches, especially this album: Night Walk - YouTube

So, my question is this: How do I get this garagey, lo-fi, but distinctive sound? What gear should I use? I'm more than halfway through writing material for the next album and I want to come up with a plan of attack on how I'm going to record this thing. I'm really, really, really hoping to do it at home again. Going back to Dirty Beaches, I know Alex recorded "Badlands" on a four-track cassette recorder, so let's make this clear: I'm willing to get very unconventional. I love the sound of vocals through guitar amps, over-saturated tapes, the beautiful artifacts of a medium being pushed hard, and generally loathe the sound of squeaky clean production that most studios instill.

Ultimately, I'd like to know what solutions people would recommend, if it even matters, things like mic preamps, recording interfaces (digital and/or analog), compressors, and general recording methods. I'm currently using a Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Pro Tools 10, and have an SM57, SM58, CAD M179, and some various old and charmingly lo-fi dynamic mics. I would almost donate a kidney to just waltz into a studio with an ancient valve console, but again, I really, really need to keep this on as tight of a budget as possible, and also kind of like the idea of making the most out of the least. I am considering recording completely digitally and bouncing it onto some studio's reel to reel with a (reasonably) hot signal, since that seems the easiest.

Anyway, my brain is hungry - I'm very inexperienced at recording, let alone taking a tasteful lo-fi approach to it. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts. Thanks!

 

[ecc83]

Just a couple of thoughts.

Oddly in another thread I mentioned the Audient Mico pre amp. In addition to being an excellent pre in its own right it has an "HMX" control on one channel that introduces "nice" distortion. You might find a S/H one or maybe hire one?

Next, transformers. Much bollox talked about them but they CAN be made to distort if you get cheap ones and abuse them! Walter OEP make some very good traffs but there is a low cost version, the 1200 1:1 "600" Ohm line traff that should start to bend at 0dBu on wideband signals. You could even try one at speaker levels but be prepared to pop one at $10ish a go and make sure there is a load on the speaker line/amp output. You can buy V cheap mic "matching" transformers, low to high Z. The traffs in these are minute and should get 'orrible quickly. (and die pretty smartly!)

If you have a guitar amp with a VALVE input stage you could try driving that with very high signal levels, e.g. speaker OP from another amp (again, have loads in place) DO NOT try this with Sstate inout amps, you will just get smoke.

So, if you are prepared to do a bit of mackling and soldering you can create some really grungy noises but be prepared to lose some things and pay great attention to yours and others personal safety.

And, if you want to "toy" with valves but in relative safety look top right. There is a range of "HT" pedals that use an ECC83 at 300V and you COULD get in there and modify things. The 300V will bloody hurt but probably not floor you unless you are middling or have a pacemaker!

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

..."what if I was sucked into a timewarp and had to lay down tracks in 1965" kind of garage band sound. I imagine it wouldn't sound unlike Dirty Beaches, especially this album: Night Walk - YouTube

So, my question is this: How do I get this garagey, lo-fi, but distinctive sound?

Well...for starters no one was recording in garages and specifically chasing a "lo-fi" sound back in the day.
No one was really recording at home, either.

So those sounds were usually gotten in actual studios, using what at the time was the bets gear they had.
IOW...they were not trying to make it "lo-fi_...people for some reason think they were, but it's just that studios and production approaches were a lot different, and a lot more limited.

Get everyone in the room...put up a couple of dynamic or ribbon mics, lots of mic bleed...go straight to tape, a 2-track or maybe even mono...with very minimal, processing. Everything happens in the room and when the tracking is done, it's pretty much mixed too.

 

[Loxley]

Well...for starters no one was recording in garages and specifically chasing a "lo-fi" sound back in the day.
No one was really recording at home, either.

So those sounds were usually gotten in actual studios, using what at the time was the bets gear they had.
IOW...they were not trying to make it "lo-fi_...people for some reason think they were, but it's just that studios and production approaches were a lot different, and a lot more limited.

Get everyone in the room...put up a couple of dynamic or ribbon mics, lots of mic bleed...go straight to tape, a 2-track or maybe even mono...with very minimal, processing. Everything happens in the room and when the tracking is done, it's pretty much mixed too.

I completely understand all of that. I'm talking about that low fidelity vibe that a lot of garage rock bands had, like The Guess Who, The Kingsmen, Kinks, Yardbirds, etc., that they achieved in a studio.. I'm trying to do the best I can at achieving that while recording at home, if possible.

I have learned that mic bleed was a huge part of that sound. The problem is that short of singing and playing guitar at the same time, all instruments are recorded direct in since I'm using synthesizers and drum machines.. unless you suggest I record those through a PA? Running everything through a speaker, one way or another, is something I've been considering.

 

[miroslav]

Mmmm....OK....but I'm not sure then how you are making the connection between bands like The Guess Who, Kinks, Yardbirds...and things like synths and drum machines...?

What I was trying to say...the bands and the music you are referencing, didn't get done in the manner you are working.
I mean...how do you get mic bleed, and a sense of a band playing mostly live, together...with your setup?
It's something you will need to experiment with.
My real point was that just making things "grungy" or using a cassette recorder..etc...may not get you there. I think you have to consider that those sounds were more about the band's performance, the arrangement, and the somewhat live studio production approaches.

I certainly would not approach that by recording all DI, lots of synths and drum machines.
Of course...you should do it how you can, how it works for you, and then get your own sound and develop that. I mean, at some point you find out what you can and can't do in your situation, and then you work with that until you can make changes to your situation.

 

[RFR]

So, my question is this: How do I get this garagey, lo-fi, but distinctive

I'm very inexperienced at recording, let alone taking a tasteful lo-fi approach to it. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts. Thanks!

To get that 'sound' you have to recreate the equipment, the talent, the recording style, and the rooms used to record in.

The equipment is not a 'shoestring budget' kind of deal.

You could get a tascam 388 which is an immensely popular all in one 8 track mixer/recorder. Lots of low-fi enthusiasts and indie artists use them. However, those run 1,000 to 1,500 in good condition. Not exactly shoestring, seeing how with modern computer based stuff you can out together a studio for 500 or under. (Provided you have a computer)

That "recording revolution" guy on youtube has a series called the 300 dollar challenge.

Now this leads us to the million dollar issue.

Your experience. Admittedly you have very little. That is the big stumbling block.

Asking questions here is great and beneficial, but becomes nothing more than a typing exercise. No one here can give you the experience. That comes with time, practice, and learning the tools at hand.

So in summary, you're not going to get the gear to recreate the glorious sounds of yesteryear with no money.

You're not going to get the sounds of yesteryear with little to no experience.

I highly recommend watching Grahm's video series on the 300 dollar challenge. (Recording revolution)

Get what you can afford and practice and learn the tools.

Do the best you can.

 

[fat_fleet]

I [...] largely rely on synthesizers and drum machines to back me up. [...] all instruments are recorded direct in since I'm using synthesizers and drum machines..

I'm talking about that low fidelity vibe that a lot of garage rock bands had, like The Guess Who, The Kingsmen, Kinks, Yardbirds, etc., that they achieved in a studio..

You are going to have a difficult time. As mentioned, none of those bands used synths and drum machines.
It's probably easier to make convincing techno with only acoustic guitars and bongos.

 

[Loxley]

To get that 'sound' you have to recreate the equipment, the talent, the recording style, and the rooms used to record in.

The equipment is not a 'shoestring budget' kind of deal.

Your experience. Admittedly you have very little. That is the big stumbling block.

Get what you can afford and practice and learn the tools.

Absolutely - I appreciate the wisdom and understand it. I gotta get my feet wet, which is why I want to continue taking home recording head-on. Let me be clear, I'm not trying to actually build a sound entirely around a 1960s garage rock band as much as I'm trying to take that vibe, lower fidelity, and analog character and put it into my own music, which is certainly not garage rock.

The reason I made this post is to see what gear and techniques I could affordably use to "fake it". It's easy to say there's no short cuts, but I know there's ways to get closer, such as things like mic bleed that miroslav mentioned. Like I said before, listen to that Dirty Beaches album I posted to get an idea. He has always released music on a shoestring budget.. it certainly seems that sound leans heavily on alternative recording techniques - I just need to figure them out.

 

[fat_fleet]

Like I said before, listen to that Dirty Beaches album I posted to get an idea. He has always released music on a shoestring budget.. it certainly seems that sound leans heavily on alternative recording techniques - I just need to figure them out.

Someone like that, who has a following, tours internationally, plays SXSW etc, has a different "shoestring budget" than you do.

 

[Nola]

Loxley, to address your actual question, this is what you should do:

On the drum machine, if it allows use of overheads only, use those samples. No close mic'd samples. If you have an amp, run the synth through it. Run the drum machine through it and mic it, too. Most lo-fi albums have a lot of mid range and very little highs because the 4 track tape's range couldn't capture the extremes of low and high. So cut the lows at like 125hz and the highs at like 5k. For mics, use something like a copperphone or an old bullet mic. A lot of lo-fi/garage records lack reverb (they probably couldn't afford reverb units, but it became part of the aesthetic), so go light on reverb if any. Get a cheap 4-track (yamaha mt50 is nice and cheap) and run your computer mix through it just to get the tape sound on your recording. In the digital realm add saturation plugins to some key instruments.

Just get creative and think why those sounds sound the way they do. I gave you a good starting point. This gear should only cost a few hundred bucks, and you definitely do not need to spend more than that to get a lo-fi sound.

 

[Loxley]

Someone like that, who has a following, tours internationally, plays SXSW etc, has a different "shoestring budget" than you do.

Maybe later on, but Badlands was entirely recorded on cassette in a bedroom.

On the drum machine, if it allows use of overheads only, use those samples. No close mic'd samples. If you have an amp, run the synth through it. Run the drum machine through it and mic it, too. Most lo-fi albums have a lot of mid range and very little highs because the 4 track tape's range couldn't capture the extremes of low and high. So cut the lows at like 125hz and the highs at like 5k. For mics, use something like a copperphone or an old bullet mic. A lot of lo-fi/garage records lack reverb (they probably couldn't afford reverb units, but it became part of the aesthetic), so go light on reverb if any. Get a cheap 4-track (yamaha mt50 is nice and cheap) and run your computer mix through it just to get the tape sound on your recording. In the digital realm add saturation plugins to some key instruments.

All great advice, thanks Nola! Do you recommend I run bassier synths (and bass itself) through DI or run those through a bass amp?

 

[Nola]

Maybe later on, but Badlands was entirely recorded on cassette in a bedroom.



All great advice, thanks Nola! Do you recommend I run bassier synths (and bass itself) through DI or run those through a bass amp?

I think you're thinking about Nebraska, not Badlands. Badlands is a song and Nebraska the 4-track album Bruce did.

Loxley, I think bass is your enemy if going for lo-fi. As I said, listen to those records. Listen to the Kinks. Do you hear much bass? It's mostly mid-range and that's it. There are some highs cutting through b/c I think they used Vox amps, which are pretty brittle sounding. But to my ear they cut off around 5k or so.

I think if you record bass then do it through an amp if you have one. A guitar amp will record bass just fine, so if you have 1 amp and it's a guitar amp use that. If you don't like it, try DI, but DI will in general give more low end than an amp, imo. And amp will give less low end and more room. This would be more accurate to a lo-fi/garage sound. But try it. Maybe you'll like the DI. I use DI on my recordings and they tend to sound lo-fi just b/c of recording decisions and mixing decisions. So you can make either work and experimenting is best. If you have an amp you can run things through it and mess with the tone knobs on the amp, too, to fine tune things. I'd mix the bass low no matter which method you choose if you're going for that sound.

 

[Loxley]

I think you're thinking about Nebraska, not Badlands. Badlands is a song and Nebraska the 4-track album Bruce did.

Actually, Badlands, the Dirty Beaches album, was probably a nod to Bruce's Nebraska. You can hear it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzT38KmCXq4

Loxley, I think bass is your enemy if going for lo-fi. As I said, listen to those records. Listen to the Kinks. Do you hear much bass? It's mostly mid-range and that's it. There are some highs cutting through b/c I think they used Vox amps, which are pretty brittle sounding. But to my ear they cut off around 5k or so.

... Maybe you'll like the DI. I use DI on my recordings and they tend to sound lo-fi just b/c of recording decisions and mixing decisions. So you can make either work and experimenting is best. If you have an amp you can run things through it and mess with the tone knobs on the amp, too, to fine tune things. I'd mix the bass low no matter which method you choose if you're going for that sound.

I'd agree bass sounds were pretty weak in many 60s recordings, but as I said, I'm not trying to sound like a garage rock band, as much as pick and choose lo-fi elements I like in those tracks and apply them to my style. Although, there are some great bass tones from that era, especially that fat, round sound you can hear in The Who's "I Can't Explain".

If I were to mic bass sounds through an amp, is there a mic you'd suggest, or just stick with the 57? Also, I'd be afraid to run any bass guitar/synth through a guitar amp, as it could blow the speakers pretty easily, I'd imagine. As far as you getting good lo-fi bass results on DI, could you elaborate on how you achieve that? I'd be curious to give that a shot since it's certainly easier.

 

[Nola]

I'd agree bass sounds were pretty weak in many 60s recordings, but as I said, I'm not trying to sound like a garage rock band, as much as pick and choose lo-fi elements I like in those tracks and apply them to my style. Although, there are some great bass tones from that era, especially that fat, round sound you can hear in The Who's "I Can't Explain".

If I were to mic bass sounds through an amp, is there a mic you'd suggest, or just stick with the 57? As far as you getting good lo-fi bass results on DI, could you elaborate on how you achieve that? I'd be curious to give that a shot since it's certainly easier.

Yeah just place a 57 (though I prefer other mics like an old akg 512 or vintage 545 but that gets expensive) on it.
To get good DI turn the gain up a healthy amount and roll back the output level on your preamp, if it has an output. Keep the level at like -18dbfs. I like to roll the tone back on the bass a bit, too, but that will depend on the bass. On a P-bass roll it back 50-60%. I like flatwounds, too. But again that depends.

I'm with you and record the same way -- taking bits and pieces from eras/bands etc and then making it into a collage of what I like. Good luck.

 

[miroslav]

As far as you getting good lo-fi bass results on DI, could you elaborate on how you achieve that?

I'm not really sure if you are talking about doing modern "lo-fi" or '60s retro/vintage sounds, which are really two different things.

If you want retro/vintage bass sounds...you can go DI, just use a typical Feder Bass or equivalent clone with some flatwounds. If you can find a nice FET-based DI, all the better, as I think they work best on DI bass.
You will get that fat-n-thick bass sound that was typical in the '60s.

The other option is a bass amp/cab...something like the old Ampeg B15 Portaflex, which was a staple bass amp in those days...but I don't think you're going to do that.

 

[Loxley]

I prefer other mics like an old akg 512 or vintage 545

Are you sure those are right? Whenever I search for those models, I only pull up headphones.

find a nice FET-based DI, all the better, as I think they work best on DI bass.
...something like the old Ampeg B15 Portaflex

I actually might be able to borrow a friend's B15.. those are great amps. As far as bass DIs go, what do you all recommend? Is the Sansamp VT Bass any good? I already have the old Sansamp Bass Driver DI but don't care for it too much.

 

[miroslav]

I've got a couple of preamps with FET-based DIs, so I just use them.

I've used one of the Sansamp Bass boxes that worked out really well, but it was a few years ago, and it was someone else playing the bass, and the box was his...so I don't remember which model it was.

There are probably some standalone DIs that will work well...you just have to do a bit of research which will work best on the bass.
I think the faltwounds are a big part of that vintage bass sound...the rest are things that just help.
Just experiment with what you have, There's some good bass plugs that will take most any bass track and give you loads of tone options. Check out the Waves Renaissance Bass...it's great.

 

[Nola]

Are you sure those are right? Whenever I search for those models, I only pull up headphones.

Yeah, the AKG D12 (the old/vintage ones) is a mic that's great for kick drums and anything bass. The Seinheisser MD421 is good, too. I like the Unidyne Shure 545 (but it has to be an old one from the 60s or 70s -- they're like 57s but nicer sounding) as well. Those are the models. Vintage mics get pricey, and you can probably get 90% there with a 57 so just use that.

 

[Farview]

You don't like the Sansamp bass driver? Did you mess with the settings? It's an awesome di/amp sim.

Anyway, any active di will be fine for a clean di. Passive ones can load down the.pickups and change the sound of some basses.

The biggest thing you are going to miss is the band all playing in the same room. When instruments are all played in the same room they interact. It's not just about bleed. If the bass amp and the drums are in the same room together, the note on the bass will interact with the kick drum and "tune" the kick somewhat. These things happen dynamically and physically as the instruments interact with each other. That is a big part of that vibe.

 

[bamalamalu]

https://youtu.be/1HhnWawrobA

Listen to white fence. He is using cheap tape gear and a laptop to sample drums like hip hop djs. Sounds 60's to me.