Is this a viable M/S setup

[tele12]

So I understand that the the standard mid side technique involves a figure of 8 mic and a cardioid or omni mic. I have recorded this way a few times and have a good understanding of the concept.

I recently double tracked an acoustic guitar parts with the intention to hard pan left and right (although I hate what this sounds like in mono). So, out of curiosity, I took the second take (same mic position etc.) and duplicated it, and inverted the phase on the duplication (as if it were a figure of 8 mic during m/s). When played together with the first track centred this gave me a fairly balanced stereo image. I was expecting a phasey mess for some reason. This works in mono as well because the second take obviously cancels itself out.

Is this not a viable alternative to mid/side. The phase meter is mostly positive when balanced properly with the centre mic and I can't hear anything strange. Is this a common technique?

Cheers

(posted this on another forum but wanted to get a few opinions/explanations)

 

[miroslav]

This works in mono as well because the second take obviously cancels itself out.

And you think that's good...? That's what you want...?

Is this a common technique?

Mmmm...not really. I've not heard of anyone wanting tracking to intentionally cancel them selves out in mono.

Look...if you want a true stereo recording of acoustic guitar...the M/S technique is the right way. You can also try spaced or coincident pair, or even Blumlein pair....all will give you true stereo recording with some variation.

All that other stuff...duplicate, invert, etc...is just audio manipulation, that might give you something you like and then go with that if it works for you...I'm just not sure about intentionally canceling things out...but hey, it's your mix.

Another option is to record two stereo takes...like with M/S or Blumlein or even try the other techniques...and then place each guitar during tracking in the stereo mix position where you want it...and see how the two separate takes come together.
One thing...M/S is the one best suited for collapsing to Mono without any issues.

 

[tele12]

And you think that's good...? That's what you want...?



Mmmm...not really. I've not heard of anyone wanting tracking to intentionally cancel them selves out in mono.

Look...if you want a true stereo recording of acoustic guitar...the M/S technique is the right way. You can also try spaced or coincident pair, or even Blumlein pair....all will give you true stereo recording with some variation.

All that other stuff...duplicate, invert, etc...is just audio manipulation, that might give you something you like and then go with that if it works for you...I'm just not sure about intentionally canceling things out...but hey, it's your mix.

Another option is to record two stereo takes...like with M/S or Blumlein or even try the other techniques...and then place each guitar during tracking in the stereo mix position where you want it...and see how the two separate takes come together.
One thing...M/S is the one best suited for collapsing to Mono without any issues.

I think you misunderstood me, the cancelling out part always happens during mid/side recording. It's what makes the technique mono compatible. The "side" mic is only cancelled, the mid mic remains. In my case, only one take is cancelled, the other remains meaning it is mono compatible. As for alternative techniques, I have used mid/side many times, I'm just experimenting with other techniques. As I mentioned,I don't want two takes to be audible in mono. Time delay techniques also don't sound great mono.

 

[miroslav]

As I mentioned,I don't want two takes to be audible in mono.

That's what I mean...did you want it cancelled out seeing that it's a second take, and not an actual M/S recording of one take.
I ask because most times everyone is doing second takes to fatten/double up...so they tend to want that preserved even in mono.

I dunno...for me, mono isn't a real concern. Sure, I check it in mono, but I don't really plan for it...and I've done lots of double-tracked guitars panned L/R...etc. Yeah, there's always some of that phase vibe, but that also is what gives it the "fattening", IMO.
It's really up to you...if what you are doing is how you want it to sound...then use it. I don't think it's a question of rules being broken.


Oh...there a great plug from Plugin Alliance/Brainworx called bx_stereomaker that I've been using on a few single-mic tracks in my mixes to create a really authentic stereo sound for the single mic track, and it's one of the very few stereo-izing plugs that collapses 100% to mono without any sonic penalties.
You get a real authentic L-R image bounce that doesn't clutter the middle.

https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/bx_stereomaker.html

I've gotten it for very cheap when they have their sales...and it's worth the price.

 

[tele12]

Ah I see. I do double for fatness on certain styles but for acoustic guitar especially I'm quite happy with the second take disappearing. I'll definitely check out the demo for that plugin, thanks for the recommendation!