Trying to get that mellow sound...

I

IronWine

Member
Hi friends
So i started to record a few demos of my song with a low cost gear i borrowd from my friend. A dynamic 'samson' mic and a chinese soundboard. Its good for now, im not looking to buy my own gear right now.

So..im having some troubles with trying to get that mellow, soft sound for my vocal recording. The best examples would be iron and wine, hose gonzales, and a bit don mclean.. i guess "muddy hymnal" by iron&wine is a great example. Unfortunatly i still can't post URL im here.

As you can hear it's very very smooth and 'nice' for listening. You can hear his breath and those little 'clicks' in his singing.

When i'm trying to record like this, im singing pretty close to the mic, straight towards it, but all im getting is a muddy, heavy sound.

Do you guys have any suggestions for me?
Maybe the mic placment is wrong?
What about compressing and normalizing?
Maybe i need a condenser mic?

Thank you very much!
 
With what little information you have provided, I will take a stab at some of the issues. Interface, then Mic. Mic at this point is less of an issue until the interface problem gets resolved. But the mic will probably become an issue as soon as the first issue is resolved.

Do some research on the interface, tell us what mic you are using.
 
The last thing I am is a gear snob, but sometimes you just have to be realistic. You're asking how to get a sound that was achieved with top of the line, professional equipment, in a professional environment, which includes the room, the gear, the expertise, and the talent. I'll leave it at that and see if anyone else can be more "helpful".
 
IronWine said:
As you can hear it's very very smooth and 'nice' for listening. You can hear his breath and those little 'clicks' in his singing.

When i'm trying to record like this, im singing pretty close to the mic, straight towards it, but all im getting is a muddy, heavy sound.
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RAMI's advice takes podium, but have a google and find out what the different types of mic are and what their characteristics are.
Singing close to a mic with a cardioid pickup pattern (most common dynamics) will result in what's called the proximity effect.
In short, the closer you are the boomier it will sound.

I reckon those guys you mentioned probably sang in a nice environment and stayed back from the mic a bit to avoid this effect.

This can be a big problem in an untreated room because staying back from the mic can sound bad due to reflections and what not.
In pinch a High pass filter might help but it's less ideal than getting a nice sound from the start.

As well as that you're probably hearing a bit of studio sheen on there. There'll be a nice suitable reverb and delay and almost definitely some subtle compression too. Those are the icing though...not quick fixes.
 
RAMI said:
The last thing I am is a gear snob, but sometimes you just have to be realistic. You're asking how to get a sound that was achieved with top of the line, professional equipment, in a professional environment, which includes the room, the gear, the expertise, and the talent. I'll leave it at that and see if anyone else can be more "helpful".
Click to expand...

You are wrong my friend. Not to be rude, but this specific song and specific album (the creek drank the cradle by iron&wine) was recorded with a tascam 4track recorder. I wouldn't even asked it if it was recorded in a proffesional enviroment.
As for jose and don mclean you are right, but let's stick with the main example, it's my main vision for my tracks.

Btw i will get the name of the interface as soon as ill get home.

Thanks again

Steenamaroo, thanks for the advice.
 
IronWine said:
A dynamic 'samson' mic and a chinese soundboard. Its good for now, im not looking to buy my own gear right now.
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What Chinese Soundboard? (edit: didn't see you already commented)

You may be right about the four track but there's no way these people are recording with $80 mics in untreated rooms, you know?
Plus they're likely to have vast experience and knowledge too.
There's more to it that just one tool.
 
IronWine said:
You are wrong my friend. Not to be rude, but this specific song and specific album (the creek drank the cradle by iron&wine) was recorded with a tascam 4track recorder. I wouldn't even asked it if it was recorded in a proffesional enviroment.
As for jose and don mclean you are right, but let's go with the main example, it's my main vision for my tracks.

Btw i will get the name of the interface as soon as ill get home.

Thanks again
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So, 2 of the 3 examples you gave were "pro" recordings, and you're telling me I'm wrong? No, my friend, you're wrong. And I bet (without listening or knowing anything about the other example) that the 3rd example was done using much better equipment than you're using. It might have been a TASCAM 4-track, but I'm sure good mics were used in a room treated for recording. Just a guess.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discourage you from trying to achieve the best sound possible with what you have. But whenever people ask how to get (insert artist name here)'s sound, they often think it's just a matter of learning some kind of "trick", without taking into consideration that most good recordings are done in proper recording environments with experienced people and good mics.

The fact that it was done on a TASCAM 4 track has very little to do with how good or bad a recording turns out.
 
Steenamaroo said:
What Chinese Soundboard? (edit: didn't see you already commented)

You may be right about the four track but there's no way these people are recording with $80 mics in untreated rooms, you know?
Plus they're likely to have vast experience and knowledge too.
There's more to it that just one tool.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Exactly my point.
 
On top of everything else -- You put a great vocalist with great technique and a great voice in front of a great mic, you get a great recording. Crappy mic? You still capture a great performance as well as that mic is capable of picking it up.

95% of any recording is the source - Not the gear.




And I *am* a gear snob. :eek:




Shemekia Copeland -- Was FOH for her a few months ago. She wanted a SM58, I wanted to give her a Telefunken M80. I'm pretty sure I won the battle, but I have no illusion that no matter what you hand someone with a voice like that, the audience isn't going to give a hoot.

Don't get me wrong - As mentioned, I'm very (VERY) picky about gear. Some gear sucks. Some gear is great. Some gear is "meh..." But with a great source, "meh" gear isn't so bad...
 
Im not saying that ill be able to get the perfect sound out of a cheap chinese gear. Which is by the way iCon mobile U interface and a samson Q2 mic, straight to my Pc. Also i have 2 30x30 acoustic foams right behind me. The room is quit big but has suprisingly decent acoustic "as is". It's about 4x5, and has one window aprox. 2meters from me.

Anyway i think you got me wrong or that i didn't explained my self too good.

Im surely not thinking at this point about tricks and magics to get a perfect sound, and this is not my goal.
I was just looking for basic suggestions to get a more mellow and smooth sound for my vocals, instead of the 'boomie' and raw sounds that i get, with diffrent mic placements, different methods of singing, maybe a diffrenet type of microphone (condenser?), using different kinds of effects on Audacity or any other stuff that comes to your mind.

And i'm quit positively sure, that a cheap tascam cassette recorder is not a part of the proffesinal, almost ideal envirment that you described. But let's not stick with this arguement and focus*on the important things :)
 
IronWine said:
Im not saying that ill be able to get the perfect sound out of a cheap chinese gear. Which is by the way iCon mobile U interface and a samson Q2 mic, straight to my Pc. Also i have 2 30x30 acoustic foams right behind me. The room is quit big but has suprisingly decent acoustic "as is". It's about 4x5, and has one window aprox. 2meters from me.

Anyway i think you got me wrong or that i didn't explained my self too good.

Im surely not thinking at this point about tricks and magics to get a perfect sound, and this is not my goal.
I was just looking for basic suggestions to get a more mellow and smooth sound for my vocals, instead of the 'boomie' and raw sounds that i get, with diffrent mic placements, different methods of singing, maybe a diffrenet type of microphone (condenser?), using different kinds of effects on Audacity or any other stuff that comes to your mind.

And i'm quit positively sure, that a cheap tascam cassette recorder is not a part of the proffesinal, almost ideal envirment that you described. But let's not stick with this arguement and focus*on the important things :)
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It's all good, man. You're very selective in what you choose to read. I specifically said that the TASCAM 4-track has very little to do with the final product compared to the mic, room, knowledge of recording, talent, etc..... But, either way, knock yourself out. Good luck.
 
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The Creek Drank the Cradle was indeed done on a 4-track in Sam's residence at the time. On some tracks, you can even hear the air conditioner in the background :)

I don't think that his environment or equipment was all that sophisticated for that album. And honestly it's not a very good sounding album (I love that album, but it really does sound like poo). Great performances and songwriting, but any time the acoustic guitar + slide shows up, I still cringe a little.

You say that you're up close to the mic and it's coming out boomy. That's called proximity effect (Steenamaroo described it above), where mics tend to accentuate the bass frequencies when very close to the sound source. Try simply backing away from the mic several inches and see how it sounds. Then try backing away several more inches. See if you can find a distance that sounds pleasing to you. Experiment a little. The tradeoff is that the farther away you get from the mic, the more the room acoustics will be a factor. It's all about finding a balance.
 
IronWine said:
Im not saying that ill be able to get the perfect sound....
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I didn't check out your audio examples....but right off, for that breathy vocal sound, apart from your performance, which is the main thing.....you need to have the gain up with mic and pre, and then sing somewhat close but watch it...if you raise your vocal level with the extra gain, you could then distort....so it's part technique in performance and part in how you set up the gear....and yeah, the room is key also. You may want to NOT use that foam, as it will only remove the high-end ambiance, and that could very well be what adds the articulation to the breathy vocal. You don't want breathy and muddy at the same time.

Get out in the middle of the room, away from the walls...with about 3/4 on the long side you are singing toward.
That should keep the reflections to a minimum, especially if you are singing it smooth and breathy. :)
 
miroslav said:
I didn't check out your audio examples....but right off, for that breathy vocal sound, apart from your performance, which is the main thing.....you need to have the gain up with mic and pre, and then sing somewhat close but watch it...if you raise your vocal level with the extra gain, you could then distort....so it's part technique in performance and part in how you set up the gear....and yeah, the room is key also. You may want to NOT use that foam, as it will only remove the high-end ambiance, and that could very well be what adds the articulation to the breathy vocal. You don't want breathy and muddy at the same time.

Get out in the middle of the room, away from the walls...with about 3/4 on the long side you are singing toward.
That should keep the reflections to a minimum, especially if you are singing it smooth and breathy. :)
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Now I'm confused. I thought it was all about the source. It's either "all about" something or it's not. It can't be both.

Just needling you. But, even though I know exactly what you're saying and agree with it, sometimes "it's all about the source" is a nice thing to say, but not the answer to getting a particular sound. Yes, a good singer's talent will shine through even with mediocre equipment, but if that was the whole story, there would be no need for decent equipment, well-treated rooms, and good mixing/mastering engineers. I don't think it helps anyone to give them the false illusion that as long as they have talent, anything can be achieved with shitty equipment. There's a balance that has to be struck, and smug phrases don't always achieve that.

I'm not directing that at you, Miro. You actually tried to help with advice other than that smug "talent" statement.
 
Tadpui said:
The Creek Drank the Cradle was indeed done on a 4-track in Sam's residence at the time.
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Cool. But that doesn't mean he didn't have well-treated, big rooms to record (and mix) in.

honestly it's not a very good sounding album (I love that album, but it really does sound like poo)
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Well, there you go. Sometimes it's nice to get the truth beyond just "it was recorded in someone's house....". Interesting. :D
 
You mean what John said...?
I just got a kick out of the "I *am* a gear snob" comment. :D

I don't know if he was being smug, and maybe the "source=95%" thing is a bit extreme, though I think he was saying that more for effect.
Sure, a great performance CAN be mucked up with shitty gear and room. I think he was talking more about the overall character and signature style of a performance will often come through most any gear....like Clapton always sounding like Clapton whether he plays a Strat or an LP or whatever.

In the OP's case....his specifc performance of a breathy/airy vocal will make up a lot of the sound he is after.
 
miroslav said:
You mean what John said...?
I just got a kick out of the "I *am* a gear snob" comment. :D
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Oh, yeah maybe. I didn't go back to see who wrote what. I thought you had said it. Either way, like I said, you gave him other advice, too, so you did try to help. I tried to help, too. But it made me remember why I hesitated to come back to this place. People only want to hear what they want to hear. They don't want to hear what they don't want to hear. So, 95% of the time, giving good advice is a waste of time. It's like when your friend is going out with someone that you know is not good for him/her. There's nothing you can say to help them. They really just have to figure it out for themselves.
 
IronWine said:
Hi friends
So i started to record a few demos of my song with a low cost gear i borrowd from my friend. A dynamic 'samson' mic and a chinese soundboard. Its good for now, im not looking to buy my own gear right now.

So..im having some troubles with trying to get that mellow, soft sound for my vocal recording. The best examples would be iron and wine, hose gonzales, and a bit don mclean.. i guess "muddy hymnal" by iron&wine is a great example. Unfortunatly i still can't post URL im here.

As you can hear it's very very smooth and 'nice' for listening. You can hear his breath and those little 'clicks' in his singing.

When i'm trying to record like this, im singing pretty close to the mic, straight towards it, but all im getting is a muddy, heavy sound.

Do you guys have any suggestions for me?
Maybe the mic placment is wrong?
What about compressing and normalizing?
Maybe i need a condenser mic?

Thank you very much!
Click to expand...


you'll need mellow sounding mics, like a Neumann TLM67, royer r121, beyer m130, beyer m160, Electrovoice RE20
 
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