For those who have gone from Demo Studio to Big Production Studio.

M

McButtsky

New member
Which studio do you find the hardest to work in?. The typical demo studio caters for unsigned bands usually on a tight budget with low grade gear. You usually have around 3 days to do 3 songs, recorded and mixed. The band members aren't normally too hot in thei'r domain and your equpitment is typically low to mid range quality at best. The pay is adequate, but your always dreaming of getting to the big studio, where.........

The studio has a about a 3 month production time, a Pro Tools setup, a huge array of mic's and outboard, usually of the highest quality. Lots of record label suits expecting you to make this band the next biggest money maker. Poncey, arrogant band members that dont like to do what they're asked. A big huge desk that takes 3 pushes of the old wheeley chair to get from one end to the other, and best of all, Air Conditioning!!!.

Now, while im not saying that working in a Big Studio is easy, i reckon that demo studio work is the most stressfull and harder studio to work in. You have to make a bunch of greasey dreamers sound like the chart bands to keep your reputation up, using the cheapest, nastyest equiptment u have. The pay is enough to keep you fed, clothed, housed and a little left over to buy the odd thing now and then, but u stick with it cos u want to get to the big studio's, even though u could take a different job that pays more. but you got to love what u do.

Hmmm, i wonder what studio i work in....... It aint barefoot Studio's in LA i know that ;)
 
Well . . . my experience basically entails having gone from one shitty studio to other levels and variations of shitty.

But they've all been pretty much shitty and not quite close to the "bigger studios" as you refer to them.


But from my shitty experience, I'd have to say that, honestly, there aren't many ways in which I feel hindered. Anything that I or the client wants to get done we can pretty much get done.

Even though some of my equipment would technically qualify as "shitty," I guess I don't exactly look at it that way. It gets me a sound I am more than happy with, and has the flexibility to do the things I want it to do. I guess I don't look at that as any sort of indication that it is in some way "shitty."

The most difficult hurdle for me to get over is the client's perception. They don't necessarily understand sound and/or how it behaves, and what it takes to capture it and reproduce it. Without any other knowlege, some of them are under the perception that getting good sound requires racks and racks of glowing lights and knobs . . . and a gigantic console with row upon row of faders, knobs, and whatchamajiggers.

. . . that somehow this is the key to getting a good demo. If/when these people decide to stick it out, they're usually very pleasantly surprized and pleased by the results.

Another major obstacle I generally have is in effectively communicating with the band the importance of soundchecking. A lot of people come in here all reved up and ready to go, and assume that it should all just be as simple as plugging in, banging it out, slapping it together and walking away with a finished product in a matter of a few hours.

And I take some responsibility for this, because I realize I can be more diligent explaining people the correlation between time spent soundchecking and mixing . . . and the quality of the finished product.

Lastly, I often find myself running in to brick walls when I try to explain to people that microphones hear differently than our ears do . . . and the importance of something being of a quality that mixes well with other things. For instance, a bass player may like the sound of old, worn strings . . . but doesn't realize how difficult it will be to retain any punch or definition in the mix. I know from experience that if he/she doesn't change them, he will be upset when his tracks disappear come mixdown time. But I also know that if I tell him to change his strings, that he's probably going to get upset because he likes his worn strings.

In his mind, (he believes that) I just don't understand his sound or respect his preferences. But in my mind, I know I've run in to this situation before and I know he's going to be unhappy if we let him use his crappy strings.

And it's the same way with the drummers and their extra thick, heavy, cymbals and the many thousands of them they like to use at once. When I tell them to use darker, lighter cymbals with less sustain in a recording environment . . . they just think that I'm some guy who doesn't like cymbals. :D And who the hell am I to tell them what kind they should use? I'm mucking with their sound.

Then you have the guy who refuses to rent a nic amplifier for the session, because his current amp gives him "exactly the sound he wants" when he practices with it in his bedroom. And won't accept the possibility that it just sounds like ass when you try to mic it up in any way. :D

Yet I know that if I let them have their way, their ears are going to be hurting come mixdown time, and they're going to complain about it and blame me for mic'ing their cymbals too close or whatever. :D So it's catch-22 situations like this that I find to be the most challenging. Any gear or space restrictions are very, very minor compared to the interpersonal challenges of working with a band.
 
Thats why i make sure the band is clear about stuff before we start. If the band doesnt trust you as an engineer, then its pretty much hopeless. I feel trust is the first thing that needs to be achieved. Tell them that they need to trust the engineer, that he has done it several times, and he knows how to get best results in the fastest way possible.

If they dont accept that, i wonder why they chose to come to my studio in the first place.

One of the big things ive noticed with switching to a big studio is that theres alot more things involved. People are paying more money, and because its a big studio, they expect the best no matter what. There isnt room for any mistakes. I felt little mistakes were a little more lenient in the smaller garage studio setup. People were always satisfied with the final product, but i have had times when ive made mistakes with their money and time on the line, where since it wasnt considered such a big studio, where they were paying tons of money for it, the clients easily forget about it with a little bit of compromising on payments.

However, its much easier to lose someones trust if you make a mistake in a big studio. And if you lose it, dont expect them to come back.

Which is why its good to record a couple years in a small studio until you get to the point where you can record with your eyes closed. That you dont forget to arm tracks, and you dont forget to punch in, or press record, or unmute on the mixer, etc.


Great, now everyone is gonna think i make alot of mistakes in my recordings :D

danny
 
I've worked with VERY minimal equipment, equipment that most producers on here would laugh theyre asses off at.

But, I really don't feel it's JUST the equip, its what you do with it.
Ive used karaoke mics, and mixed it up, and Ive used condensers etc, and I can always get the sound I want.

Sure, my sound tastes may not suit alot of people, but I like what I hear
 
Good points all round. Bands are a big pain up the tightly clenched arse. And dead bass strings, there's nothing i hate more than people who come in with crapped out bass strings and expect to sound like Billy Sheehan. And drummers, they're just as bad. I always ask that the drummer change all his/her skins a day or two before coming in, or change all the top skins at the very least, but 9 times out of 10 they moan that they cant afford to. I mean come on it costs about £40 tops to reskin everything on a 5 piece, and its for their sake your asking them to do it, not to be anal.
 
I like having total control, I didn't always have that in bigger places. But I did like not having to do my own soldering while laying on my back after the A/C shutdown. In bigger places I had more choices, which in some cases means your wasting time between 3 mics that will only make neglible differences when your done. In smaller places sometimes you have to be more inventive and actually engineer something. Great equipment means less downtime and its easier to dial stuff in, semi pro stuff you have to work hard to achieve good results.
I enjoy squeezing cheap or semi pro gear until I've maximized its potential. It depends I guess on the band..the label, the city, the studio vibe and what kinda mood Im in.

SoMm
 
I get it..this is a trick question...just like...

what do you prefer:

a. having a girlfriend..with all the trouble of insecurity, arguments etc...or

b. the world of marriage...no more insecurity....no more arguments....eternal love....




uhm... yeah right.....

no matter how big your studio is.....is about the bigginess (?) of your ego...


















ok, no more beer for me tonight :eek:
 
You have to gain a bands trust... Just because they are recording at your place does not mean they think you are the best...
What I do, if I don't think something is going to sound right (bass or what ever), is say "Hey man I dig what you are saying and lets do it your way, but just for fun lets try if both ways and you deside which one sounds the best".. 9 times out of 10 they end up going my way, and sometime I learn something new!!!!! but what happens in the end is the band stopps thinking you don't understand there sound and starts looking at you asking questions like "you think I should change amps?? or change my strings?? or my cymbals??"

It is all trust
 
GroupEffort,


You make a good point. But honestly, I think the key is for the band to get more experience in the studio. The guys who are used to playing out live, or who are just starting out have basically no clue. And the problem is they don't know that they have no clue. :D Being a musician, everyone has at least a little knowlege about recording; either from doing rough demos or live sound or whatever. And a little knowlege is very dangerous.

If I'm a musician, and I'm paying someone to record a demo/EP for me, I'm looking at it like this:

a) I won't go to someone without hearing stuff that person's done for other people. I want to hear his/her portfolio. Or, at the very least, if someone whom I really trust tells me that guy is really good, then I might make an exception.

b) Provided that I've heard this person's past work and really liked it . . . or that someone who I think has outstanding judgement gave this person the big thumbs-up, that's good enough for me to determine that I trust his judgement. If I listened to his stuff and didn't like it, or if someone told me to be weary of his engineering skills, then I wouldn't go to this guy in the first place.

c) As a musician, I would much rather focus on my performance . . . laying my stuff down properly, getting locked in with the drummer, etc. The last thing I want to worry about is the sound. Let someone else handle that shit. :D If he says "do this," then fine. I'll do it. I'm sure he's got his reasons. Let him worry about that, and I'll worry about me.

In a perfect world . . .
 
i agree, but what I get a lot of is people coming saying stuff like " I read Korn puts a mic up there ass and gets that cool sound"... HEEE HEEE HEEE
Or I get "I got this really cool crate amp that sounds outstanding"...
I just try to turn those comments into a "sure man lets try that"
If you don't you are looked at as one of those NOITALL studio guys and we all have worked with those guys... Great with gear, sucky with people
Studio work has a lot to do with the personality, 30% i would say.. The rest is background and gear
 
Group,

I totally get what you're saying. :D You make some great points.

I just think the reason Engineers/producers develop that attitude in the first place is because of all the stupid stuff and the shitty people you have to deal with.

Perfect example: I just had a guy come in with a shitty 4-track cassette recorder. I couldn't even figure out any of the routing on that thing, and there's no way in hell I'm going to find an owner's manual for it because the damn thing's an antique. :D

Anyway, after we pull up a bunch of his shitty mono recordings (yes, that's mono recordings on a 4-track cassette multitracker), the guy starts asking me if I can bring up the cymbal . . . and then the bass.

After explaining to him several times why I can't really do too much for the relative levels of the various instruments he has in his mono mixdowns, he continues to ask me again and again why I can't boost his cymbals up a few notches. Is this guy brain-dead or what? ? ?

I dealt with another guy a few months ago who's music was absolutely brilliant. The drummer he brought in was so talented and great to work with. But the dude kept wanting more and more cymbal. It was pretty obvious to me and the drummer that there was too much cymbal to begin with, and we actually needed to find a way to tame it or these were going to be some pretty nasty drum tracks.

I pretty sternly objected and made it very clear to him how I felt about it all. He felt that I was being argumentative, which upset him, I could tell. Kept telling me how some other Joe Hotshit engineer was so much easier to work with. Several weeks later, he complains about a rough mix I put together for him, saying some of the snare, and a lot of the tom fills were getting lost in certain parts. I explained to him that it was because there was too much damn cymbal going on, and it was drowning everything else out.

His reply: "Why don't you just gate the tom and snare tracks, and bring those up in the mix?"

My reply: "Because the cymbal is so loud, it bled in to every mic, and now I can't bring up any of those tracks without bringing the crash up along with it."

His reply: "That should be something you should have taken care of, as the engineer. You should have set the mics up differently. I wish I would have gone some place else. Joehotshit over at Hotshit Recording, Inc. always gets me great drum tracks without any fuss."

Me: "Well, I'm not JoeHotshit. And I'm not impressed that your dropping his name every time you get the chance, either. I told you the cymbals were too loud when we tracked . . . I outlined a plan to minimize their effect and to gain more control over them at mixdown, and you chose to ignore my advice. If you like Joehotshot, then go back to his studio. I'm done working with you."

And I always know that I'm going to have to deal with these kinds of schmoes more than 50% of the time. I used to hate the "know-it-all" engineer and producer types just as much as anyone else. But I'm starting to come around and see things from their perspective. I know why they have those attitudes. Most of the people they have to deal with are just plain stupid, and are fully deserving of their well-earned disdain.
 
It's hard to convince a band with $600. worth of gear total, including the 12 pack they brought with them, that they ain't gonna sound like Godsmack when the cd is finished..I mean hey, they spent 5 large on two guitars, two amps, bass, and bass rig, and a 5 peice kit with broke cymbals. and oh, yea, the 12 pack of Mick lights. What can ya do? If you don't take their money, some other basement studio will!

Terry
 
Chessrock,

Was it the guy was playing to much cymbal???? or was it he wanted high in the mix??? If it is just playing more cymbal, what I do is use a nt4 on the overheads and yea I do gate the snare and the toms on mix down (LA2)... The other thing is if you don't have 12 foot or higher ceilings you can really run into a lot of trouble with a "over cymbal" performance.. Just gets very washy.. One thing I try to do also at that point is ask "very gently" if the guy would hang off really smacking the shit out of them..
I have a new band coming in next month, age of 15 to 17 year olds!!!! I know this one is going to one of those "crate amp" bands!!! I made the mistake of playing them something that sounds great!!!! It sounds great because the guys playing are outstanding and have great gear... I will keep you posted on this new nightmare!!!!
 
Thanks, Group. I appreciate the input. The propblem was that the cymbals themselves were too loud, and they were bleeding like crazy in to all other mics . . . including the kick mic. :D That's really how loud they were, so there wasn't really any technique to combat any of it.

Ultimately, I patched a lot of it up after the fact using drumagog, but I hate resorting to it.

I think I was just in a bad mood last week when I wrote that. Really, it's not always that bad. I love what I do, and it's all made worthwhile when you get those guys that really want to make an outstanding finished product.
 
chessrock said:
That's really how loud they were, so there wasn't really any technique to combat any of it.
Click to expand...

My personal approach is to forward and honest. Every studio is different, every room, every signal chain, and musician is different. You need to gain their trust and respect and honesty is usually that most efficient way. Ive had to change my attitude (I got fired from a studio once) because I wasn't shy about what I thought...

Try having the drummer come in and listen to the kick and snare solo'd with the eq to hilight the cymbals. Tell him how hard it is to mix when its like that. "Dude! Your hitting the crash so hard its opening the gate on the kick" Either Kick harder or try not killing the cymbals. Another trick to to move the cymbals farther from his reach, it creates less leverage and a lighter touch that way. Its funny how recording people is an experiement, yet we have to convey confidence with our equipment and knowledge. Its a freak show :)


SoMm
 
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