The sound of vintage recordings

[miroslav]

Don't take this wrong, but those days are gone. We are tomorrow, that is why I think what we do here really is important, we are tomorrow. We are the people who arw keeping it pure and focusing on the song, I realize this sounds BS, but it is what I believe.

I'm not sure what it is your saying....specifically.
What's "gone"?
No one is talking about reliving yesterday...but that music is always here, it's never gone.


Anyway...what's that got to do with the vintage sounds of older recordings....???
It's like you're saying we should just dismiss the idea of anything that was done before...like it's not important to what is happening today...but it really is...it's actually directly tied to it.
If you really listen to a lot of current music...it's trying hard to pull from yesterday.
There isn't too much that's "modern" that isn't trying to mimic something from yesterday in its styling and sounds.
Shit...look at all the plugs even...they're mostly chasing those vintage tones.

 

[Chili]

The average musicianship of yesteryear was truly leaps and bounds beyond what it is today --- at least with the ones who are famous.

There is some truth there. I know for me, I try to do it all and that dilutes my capabilities. I'll never be great at any one thing. In the Pro circles, why does it seem there aren't as many talented musicians? There probably are, but there are also many more musicians in the industry so the talent pool gets diluted. And then the songs that come out today just aren't as memorable as songs written in the "vintage era" (Hey, if we're coining new words, might as well coin new phrases, too ), so the talent behind the songs doesn't stand out like they used.

This is based solely on my observation.

 

[miroslav]

And then the songs that come out today just aren't as memorable as songs written in the "vintage era" ...

I was shocked that this year's Grammy Awards nominated Bieber's new album...but snubbed Bowie's final album.

Bowie will still be relevant 20 years from now, and his music will live on even longer...yet who will remember even one Bieber song, since it's all the same cheesy teenage Pop for young girls.
I mean...when those kids are all grown up...I would think their taste will have evolved, and they will realize what drivel Bieber has been putting out...
...but hey, it's all about the money.
Corporate Pop/Rock/R&B/Country/Rap...that's what they award these days.

 

[RFR]

They aren't awards ceremonies anymore, but mktg and advertising events.

 

[ecc83]

I hesitate to comment in this company! But...

Yonks ago "it" was about The Music and the Musician and they were GREAT musicians! Before Mr Wonder the only way to record a band/orchestra was all at once and so they HAD to get it right.
Then the recording engineer* was subservient to the music and to a large extent the performers? His job was to record "what's there" not add or embellish thing as HE thinks they should be.

I listen to a good deal of "classical" music on Radio 3 and some old stuff on BBC 4 TV (cracking progg about cellists yesterday!) Now, it would be a poor do, nay INSULTING for the studio to attempt to capture anything but as close to the musician's sound as possible.

The technology to do that has of course improved immensely (to the extent that at 24bits/44.1kHz we hardly need to worry about "tech" when recording most things. How it ends up is ANOTHER case of Hake!) but the danger is the music serves the technology not 'tother way around!

Re the S.W. I am listening to? The guy is obviously in a "good place" acoustically and is NOT sucking a 58!

*And they WERE "engineers" they understood and BUILT much of the gear they used!

BTW! Ref another post today..Mr W is producing signal out to 14kHz and even a sniff at 18kHz so, nothing wrong THIS end!

Dave (where's me rock!)

 

[DM60]

My apologies to all, I don't think I stated clearly what I really meant. My head was thinking recording technique and trying to get "that sound", rather than just appreciate that sound.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

My apologies to all, I don't think I stated clearly what I really meant. My head was thinking recording technique and trying to get "that sound", rather than just appreciate that sound.

If that picture is any indication (and that's a big if) Stevie could have been singing into an EV 635a on that record. Normally it's an ENG mic but it can be used for music. Although they used expensive Neumann's for vocals much of the time I think they also used a lot of less pricey dynamic mics, like the 635, RE15, Shure 545 & 546 etc. If you put together a collection of vintage and modern dynamics then rent the odd Neumann LDC or RCA ribbon for specific things you should be able to get pretty close to those vintage tones.

 

[miroslav]

My apologies to all, I don't think I stated clearly what I really meant. My head was thinking recording technique and trying to get "that sound", rather than just appreciate that sound.

Nothing to apologize for.

I'm not much into *trying* to get some retro/vintage sound, even if I'm using older gear or an old-school approach, I'm just focused on how it sounds now. I don't really even try to get any of today's sounds intentionally...you know, trying to mimic a specifc vibe that some other band/artists has recently made popular...etc...I just record and go with how it sounds to me now, and also how it wants to come out. Every session takes on a life of its own.

That said...I have done some songs where I have a "general" production idea in mind that is maybe based on a style or mood, etc...but it never a very specific thing. Of then, as I said, the recording session makes its own path, and I follow.

But yeah...there are band that try very hard to mimic something from the past...and IMO, if they pull it off, and it sounds good...then it's good.

 

[sparky123]

I wasn’t sure where to put this, but I chose not to put it in the Analog forum because I felt as though I would probably get a slanted response. Since the question deals with the aesthetics of music today vs. years ago, I figured this was as good of a place as any.

I’ve read a lot of posts where, when people have maybe asked how they thought a tone had been achieved on a vintage record, someone has said something along the lines of, “But, would anybody really want to get that sound nowadays? I mean, they did they best they could back then, but we’ve come a long way since then!”

This got me thinking that maybe I’m in the minority because, when I hear that question (“Would you want that sound today?”), my response is unabashedly hell yes! One of the biggest reasons I love those old Motown records and such is simply because I love the sound of all the instruments. I certainly enjoy---and many times dig the shit out of---the music as well, but the sound is just as much of the appeal to me. Jazz is a perfect example in this regard. I like some jazz---not all---but I almost always love the sounds---the drums, the horns, etc.---on an old jazz record.

It’s funny because I hear a lot of drummers talking about how they don’t like the sound of drums on vintage records because you can’t hear everything, etc. But the drum sounds on those are one of my favorite things about them!

So I was just wondering how others felt about this. Do you view those old recordings as “the best they could do at the time” or do you view them as sounding killer, regardless of when they were made. I realize this is a huge generalization, because in the late 60s, for example, a Motown record had a very different sound than a Beatles record. But to give you an idea of the sound I’m talking about, here’s a tune that I feel captures it well. It’s a song where everything comes together for me: the sound, the song, and the performances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSxbMm40KzM

Keep in mind I’m not saying that I don’t like the sounds of any modern recordings. I do. But my point is that I do not at all view the sounds of those vintage records as “ok for the time.” The sound of them is one of the primary reasons I enjoy them!

yea i agree ,been using some of the abbey road plugins and found them to be really good and i'm not a waves fan

 

[ecc83]

No, no apology necessary.

In my teens I knocked about with a Big Band of the G Miller stamp (I lugged my bass G gear for the bass player, did not play!) . That was a glorious sound, just like radio but better of course with top and bottom frequencies and fabulous dynamics. Had I today's gear, a co-I pair and a basic interface I feel sure I would have had to work hard NOT to get a good recording!

G.I.G.O.

Dave.

 

[NeilE]

I think that this is not necessarily a gear/technique situation. It's a band-in-a-room thing. Some of the sound of these recordings is all about the bleed. Loads of people playing and singing all in one room with just a few microphones that point at the important bits. Even so though it is part of it that it is what mic is pointing at what bit.

NeilE

 

[mixsit]

I was shocked that this year's Grammy Awards nominated Bieber's new album...but snubbed Bowie's final album.

Bowie will still be relevant 20 years from now, and his music will live on even longer...yet who will remember even one Bieber song, since it's all the same cheesy teenage Pop for young girls.
I mean...when those kids are all grown up...I would think their taste will have evolved, and they will realize what drivel Bieber has been putting out...
...but hey, it's all about the money.
Corporate Pop/Rock/R&B/Country/Rap...that's what they award these days.

Two questions -sincerely too
'It's all about the money' these days?
But my real curiosity here; I'm old, not inclined to go 'listening to Bieber' to try to 'figure it out' -assuming that were even possible..
We clearly all connect with the music from our time.
So to ask it like this;
You're figuring 'lines from a Bieber' song today.. won't do what a "Treat me like you did, The Night Before" ..did (and still does for 'us'?

 

[miroslav]

OK...I'll answer your question with a question....

Can you name one Bieber song or recall for yourself if you can, the sound of one of his songs...?...
...and then tell me how many Bowie songs you can name or recall the sound of.

I was being specific about the GA nominations. I'm sure the Bieberheads will still recognize his tunes 20 years from now...but honestly, do they REALLY hold the same value as Bowie's work...???

AFA the Beatles early stuff (which is what I believe you are referring to)...that came out of the early years of Pop/Rock...just like much of the things from that era were sort of simplistic and sophomoric, in that post-Doo Wop era....then came the more serious Rock, which is how I view Bowie's work.

Granted, there's always going to be some mindless Pop, in every generation...but I would also think that more artistic stuff should be awarded before any of that. So that's why I see it as a money/corporate thing...praise the golden goose...and all that.

It's not just Bieber...look at the last several years who the *majority* of winners are at those music awards shows...even the Rock categories are more Pop. Then...when something more artistic wins...Kanye shows up to bitch about it.
I got a funny feeling he won't be saying much this coming GA show.

I think that's why most of us don't watch these award shows...they are too staged, and anoint too many of the money makers.

 

[fat_fleet]

Were the Grammys ever not about the most crassly commercial highest selling music acts? Serious question, I've never watched them.

 

[miroslav]

There's always been that...but I think it's worse now than in the past...plus, I think in the past, many of the higher selling albums/acts also happened to be true artists in their genre.

I haven't seen a complete GA show in maybe 30 years...so I only know of the general results from post-show news.
I'm sure there are still some true artists with true talent on these shows that also get awards...but this Bieber VS Bowie thing kinda pushes the limits, IMO...though I'm sure the little Bieberheads will all be screaming their little lungs out.

No matter how they tabulate the votes (same with other music/movie awards shows)...the reality is that money and being an industry "player" will always get you closer to getting one than not.
I'm OK with that....I mean, it's all about selling product...I just think there's better product out there that deserves more award attention than what they've been picking the last few years, for the most part.

 

[BroKen_H]

This is something I've also wondered about...which leads me to one my favorite what ifs.. What if I could get the actual tracks of songs I've loved for years. Could you imagine having the stems to the songs you're talking about? Possibilities!

Yes I know there are some of those things available, but Chili, how would you like to have a copy of the actual Herb Alpert recordings? Some would love Beatles, or maybe the original tracks to Mack The Knife, or Frankie Carl/James Cotton/??? whatever. Could be a lot of fun!

 

[mixsit]

This is something I've also wondered about...which leads me to one my favorite what ifs.. What if I could get the actual tracks of songs I've loved for years. Could you imagine having the stems to the songs you're talking about? Possibilities!

Yes I know there are some of those things available, but Chili, how would you like to have a copy of the actual Herb Alpert recordings? Some would love Beatles, or maybe the original tracks to Mack The Knife, or Frankie Carl/James Cotton/??? whatever. Could be a lot of fun!

Oh yes indeed. Or one of the 'other ways.. 'fly on the wall / 'hanging out at some sessions.

 

[mixsit]

OK...I'll answer your question with a question....

Can you name one Bieber song or recall for yourself if you can, the sound of one of his songs...?...
...and then tell me how many Bowie songs you can name or recall the sound of.

I was being specific about the GA nominations. I'm sure the Bieberheads will still recognize his tunes 20 years from now...but honestly, do they REALLY hold the same value as Bowie's work...???

AFA the Beatles early stuff (which is what I believe you are referring to)...that came out of the early years of Pop/Rock...just like much of the things from that era were sort of simplistic and sophomoric, in that post-Doo Wop era....then came the more serious Rock, which is how I view Bowie's work.

Granted, there's always going to be some mindless Pop, in every generation...but I would also think that more artistic stuff should be awarded before any of that. So that's why I see it as a money/corporate thing...praise the golden goose...and all that.

It's not just Bieber...look at the last several years who the *majority* of winners are at those music awards shows...even the Rock categories are more Pop. Then...when something more artistic wins...Kanye shows up to bitch about it.
I got a funny feeling he won't be saying much this coming GA show.

I think that's why most of us don't watch these award shows...they are too staged, and anoint too many of the money makers.

Ok I get now, that was really focused on the 'awards things. 'Coo

 

[Chili]

This is something I've also wondered about...which leads me to one my favorite what ifs.. What if I could get the actual tracks of songs I've loved for years. Could you imagine having the stems to the songs you're talking about? Possibilities!

Yes I know there are some of those things available, but Chili, how would you like to have a copy of the actual Herb Alpert recordings? Some would love Beatles, or maybe the original tracks to Mack The Knife, or Frankie Carl/James Cotton/??? whatever. Could be a lot of fun!

Mixing for Herb and the wrecking crew? That would be awesome. lol. My son and I started working on one of their songs a few weeks back. I've got a snippet of the WIP. He's on trumpet, I'm doing everything else.

View attachment A Taste of Honey.mp3

 

[thesoundtek]

I have to chuckle a little here when you mention the Beatles as having a "vintage sound". I would suggest that you check out recordings by Elmore James, Big Mama Thorton, Billie Holiday, The Ink Spots, Robert Johnson then you will get an idea of real vintage. Also listen to Crosby,Stills and Nash's first album then listen to the second one and ask yourself "what do I hear?" Moving on...
I agree with Miroslav completely on this point. As an "old geezer" pushing 70 I grew up listening to the recordings of the day and even then it was apparent that the recordings reflected the available technologies of the day. I was a fan of motown and Phil Spector's "wall of sound" back in those days. Where the initial instrument tracks were all recorded in one one room of a group playing the music live. The combination of the energy of the live recording and mic bleed as opposed to single tracking each instrument to a pristine track is a huge difference in itself. Adding vocals and other instrument tracks later did not detract from the live vibe . Also using stairwells, live empty rooms or hallways for reverb instead of some vst or outboard hardware is another factor to that vintage sound. Tape has it's sound as do consoles that use tubes and transformers. Mic placement techniques or lack of also contributed to some of those recordings.
While most of us don't have the resources to "buy into" all of that old gear or have a studio, I've found that going back to recording live sessions with groups as opposed to layering parts brings back a lot of that vintage vibe.