Solo violin / solo viola: help needed

Treeline

New member
I'm biting off more than I can chew again.

Recently I was asked to take on a project that is a bit of a "holy grail" search. A local artist performs with a violin that can be majestic in live performance, but to date has sounded merely nice when recorded. I can't miss this opportunity but I'm a bit nervous about saying OK.

My approach would be to experiment, promise nothing but best efforts, seek to use what I have to best advantage, and do one thing at a time. I may be working on a demo first, and then just keep at it until we find the "grail" or run out of steam. (Mangled metaphors at work).

I have a basic complement of mics and access to some others as well; so far it's a pair of SP B1s, a C3, a pair of MXL 603s, and I can get a pair of Crown small condensers that just did wonderous work with a 7' Steinway at a concert. I can borrow an AT4055 and maybe a few other big mics. We do not have any valve mics. My preamp is a DMP3 and the recorder is pretty good - an AKAI DPS16 that will do 24 /96, two mics on a solo instrument, well. We have to find a room; I have no studio space and we will have to commandeer a small church or something.

I've done violin / viola work before and getting decent, clean, pretty well modulated signal is not a problem.. getting make your knees weak signal is what I'm after. That hasn't happened yet and I expect it will be elusive as hell.

I'd be grateful for any thoughts, war stories, advice and so on. Thanks!
 
Here is what I would do

If this is a concert setting--I would put the 603s in a stereo pair about 8' up and out from the player, then put the C3 in close--you will have to move it in and out to find the sweet spot. Run the 603's panned hard left and right to capture the embience and the C3 dead center.

You might put the small condensers out also on 2 tracks of their own. Both will need tall boom stands. Put one up on the neck of the violin about 12" from the fingerboard aimed at where the fingerboard meets the instrument. Put the other behind the player over his shoulder about 18"away. Aim that one at the bridge of the instrument.

If you run all 5 of these mics to different channels--something will sound really good!
 
Pretty much what sloop said will work. Ive gotten excellent results with the B1 and the 603's in X-Y combined. The trick is going to be finding where the rooms sweet spot is on top of finding the instruments sweet spot. For me its usually out in front about 3 feet, 4 feet from the floor for the 603's in X-Y with the B1 upside down to get the capsule as close to the 603's capsules so the phase is dead on. I also tend to sit the violinist in a folding chair in the center of the room at an angle to none of the side walls are 90 degrees to the mics or violinist. But your room maybe different.


SoMm
 
Since you've recorded violin before, I perhaps am stating the obvious - but I have found room sound is what makes the difference in an "OK" sounding violin and a "great" sounding violin.

I tend to place the mics 4 to 6 feet in front of the violin (obviously there are many variables) to allow the sound to develop. Get too close to the violin and you get the "harseness" of the instrument without the warmth of the room.
 
I like to mic violin in an X/Y pattern about 3 feet above the instrument, to give the player some room to breath. I put a LDC in center and another under the instrument aimed at the back.

I mic underneath gives the warmth that sometimes gets lost when mic'ing a bright instrument. Which is what Sloop is probably pulling in from the mic he's putting behind the player.

Blind Cowboy...
 
IMHO, 3 feet is OK ish for a fiddle sound, but a violin needs roooom to sound great. I've never miked a violin closer than about 12 feet, and prefer to set up a spaced pair rather than XY. I find that violin is very subject to image shifting with coincedent pairs. Best is an M/S setup in a big and fairly live room. It's ironic that the violinist is in the worst possible place to appreciate the beauty of his instrument, right next to it. All that bow scratching sounds terrible, unlike cello where I like to hear the bow . The room IS everything with tracking violin, assuming the violin AND the bow are quality.

Cheers, RD
 
Thanks for your help - this gives me some stuff to chew on.

In the past my "violin" tracking has all been "fiddle" tracking (with a few exceptions involving violin, viola and a string quartet) and all of it was live, meaning one take, lots of stage compromises, can't adjust mic placement if it seems a bit off, and so on.

This time the opportunity is there to think it through in advance. I agree that picking a room is going to be a big challenge, but I don't really know what to look for, other than avoiding a cavernous space or one that is too live. There is a church in town that frequently has acoustic performances and they have always had an intimate sound. The room is not too big and is carpeted. Another place is a local theater that as presently set up has a really quiet acoustic atmosphere. It's odd because the room - an auditorium - is usually a nightmare. The production running right now has created a theater in the round kind of thing.

I also have access to a movie theater for off hours - which has an advantage of lots of soundproofing. It also has stuff like automatic ventilation for a hundred fifty people... But maybe a small movie theater space could hold some possibilities.
 
Sorry for the question that may seem obvious to you, but what is an "x-y" mic set-up? Also, what is an "M/S" set-up? I'm professional musician getting into home recordings. I am recording a lot of violin(a master of traditional Persian music) at the moment, and have been learning a lot from everything you guys have posted here so far. I do have a few more questions....

What is an ideal mic for violin? Also, what is a great mic for under a grand for violin? I was about to order a km184, because I though it would sound good, and work well in live situations too. ANy thoughts? Sounds like some of you are fans of the Studio pProjjects mics. Anyone want to give a me a little breakdown of how they sound. The C3 in particular?

Much thanks in advance and for all that I've already gotten out of this thread.
 
sloop said:
If this is a concert setting--I would put the 603s in a stereo pair about 8' up and out from the player, then put the C3 in close--you will have to move it in and out to find the sweet spot. Run the 603's panned hard left and right to capture the embience and the C3 dead center.

I just want to restate how important it is that the mics are UP above the violin. Violins and violas project upwards, and I've never been in a situation where the sweet spot wasn't a few feet higher in the air than I expected. Then again I've only recorded a viola a few times and never any violin, so YMMV.
 
Treeline, did you consider pick up instead of miking? Just a thought. Check out my tunes (#1, #2, #3) here...

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2631&alid=-1

They're all recorded by $40 Fishman Transducer pickup. Cheap violin ($20) in a bad boomy bed room.

ozmorphasis said:
..I am recording a lot of violin(a master of traditional Persian music) at the moment, and have been learning a lot from everything you guys have posted here so far...

I'd LOVE to hear those... Post your songs in the clinic, would ya...??? puhleeeezzz..... :D :D :D


;)
Jaymz
 
hi there it's your friendly neighbor sweetnubs. Me be liking a really nice ribbon mic about 8' back and several feet above the violin. A good sounding room is essential. If it is for a more sparse arrangement, perhaps violin and piano, i'll opt for two ribbons in a blumlein arrangement (inherently figure 8) , again in a good sounding room. Remember impedenace matching is more essential for ribbons. People often forgot how important micing is relative to the arrangement of the song. Open arrangement with lots of space? full band with lots of fighting frequencies? etc. etc. etc. I find a songs arrangement is more essential to a good mix a lot of times than the actual skill of the mixer. I don't work in other studios as much these days since building my own, but if I can get access to a Neumann m50, bingo. I'm actually recording a violin in a few days, i'll be using said technique with a 2 royer 121 ribbons into my 2 Fearn pres, blumlein style dawg. Yep ol' nubs broke down and bought another Fearn. I am now in stereo heaven. Luckily I have a beautiful sounding room with near 60' ceilings and lots of wood. If you are mobile and can find a good sounding space and record there, do it. I've found lots of times recording a classical musician in a concert hall, church, etc. instead of a studio will pull a beautiful performance out of them. After all that's what we are really trying to do, right?
 
I too play and record fiddle, not violin. Ribbon mics and fiddles go together great. One place to try is over the headstock at the height of the top of the players head, pointed at their chin. You may want to also mic with a SDC farther out and blend to taste. Anything too close on axis pics up way too much bow across the string sound unless it is an incredible player. Condensers, especially bright ones, really make this sound horrible. Maybe rent a good ribbon and a good clean high gain pre.
 
ozmorphasis said:
Sorry for the question that may seem obvious to you, but what is an "x-y" mic set-up? Also, what is an "M/S" set-up? I'm professional musician getting into home recordings. I am recording a lot of violin(a master of traditional Persian music) at the moment, and have been learning a lot from everything you guys have posted here so far.

Try searching on the mic board for complete explanations, but XY uses two cardioid mics, often condensers, with the capsules in the same place and the two mics angled between 90 and 110 degrees to capture a left-right image. M-S is also a stereo micing technique, but uses a figure-eight mic and a unidirectional mic. The difference is that XY captures independent left and right signals, whereas M-S captures mid (M) and side (S) signals. The reason for the latter is that it's possible to manipulate the width of the stereo image.

XY is an easier technique; for violin (vs. fiddle), I'd favor a pair of small-diaphragm condensers (SDC). KM184s, I use Shure SM81s, then there are less costly mics like the 603s mentioned here. Try 'em out & see what you like.
 
small diaphragm condensers generally blow for violin sounds. Perhaps for a brighter honkey talk fiddle sound that is trying to cut through a full mix . . . . . . naaaah. High frequency "screachiness" is a real problem with violins. A crappy km184 will only exaggerate the problem. I really don't like those mics, a Km84 would be a better choice if you are really set on a small diaphragm. Violin=room, notice the equivencly in this equation. A violin sound is dependent on the sound of the room, especially in a classical context. Come on boys and girls, belly up to the bar and drop some hard cash on a ribbon mic. The good ones ain't cheap. Either people recomending small diaphgrams as a sole micing source have never actually tried it and are parroting bad bogus misinformation spread on message boards or they have tried it and have really horrible ears. Imagine taking a well trained classical musician who practices 4-7 hours per day for 20 years, owns $60,000 violin and is playing in beautiful room and putting a km184 on it? Sreeeeeech!
 
sweetnubs said:
Imagine taking a well trained classical musician who practices 4-7 hours per day for 20 years, owns $60,000 violin and is playing in beautiful room and putting a km184 on it? Sreeeeeech!

I personally don't get why nobody likes screech :D

Anyway, I have used my SM81 on violin, it's dead flat, no hyped high-end, and I like the sound. My ideal violin tone is Heifetz's recording on Bach's complete violin works. I think that was recorded in the '50s, I've no idea how it was done, but I try to get that sound, which has a fair amount of 'screech'.

Now the KM184 you are probably right. A +3dB boost at 10kHz is probably not a great idea. But I don't hear a compelling reason to cut it either.
 
go to http://www.dpamicrophones.com and click on microphone university. it discusses a lot of mic techniques.

My fav mics I've heard on fiddles are Royer R121, RCA 44bx ribbons. A close contender on one fiddle was an AT 4060 tube mic. The KM184 is OK, but a little hyped in the upper end for my taste. I haven't tried a C3, but do own a C1 and it really sucks for fiddle. Got decent results with a Shure KSM44. Good pre is a must, clean, high gain with a ribbon mic. My fav is a John Hardy. The older Great River is very good as well.
 
recording electric violin

hey, i own a fender fv-1 electric violin, the tone is crappy when i record direct in, should i get a new pickup? everyone seems to think that recording with an electric violin is a bad idea, is this true? thanks
 
paul16 said:
hey, i own a fender fv-1 electric violin, the tone is crappy when i record direct in, should i get a new pickup? everyone seems to think that recording with an electric violin is a bad idea, is this true? thanks
Not actualy if you realy need electric sound. It's realy useful for particular kind of music. Acoustic and electric violins are two different beast. Well, like guitars. Some players like acoustic, while some likes electric. It deppends on character you look for. Since people generaly used acoustic violin, then mic works better than pick up most of the time. IMHO.

;)
Jaymz
 
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