Sloppy drums!

D

daveonthebass

New member
My band are attempting to record out ep, and to me the drums just seem so sloppy, the main culprit being the kick drum!

This is out 2nd attempt of tracking the drums and they still seem shit to me (I like things to be perfect, i don't want to sound like a crap band)

Take a listen to the tracks here (roughly mixed, the other track your hearing is our guide track we did whilst tracking drums) soundcloud.com/davidsmyth/sets/ep-drums

We didn't record to click, as it uncomfotable to us, and speeding up and down slightly isn't a major issue

Could it be because our drummer doesn't get to practice much, as his kit is in our studio, and as a band we haven't rehearsed for a while?

Or could there be some other reason for it?

Please help

Dave :(
 
daveonthebass said:
My band are attempting to record out ep, and to me the drums just seem so sloppy, the main culprit being the kick drum!

This is out 2nd attempt of tracking the drums and they still seem shit to me (I like things to be perfect, i don't want to sound like a crap band)

Take a listen to the tracks here (roughly mixed, the other track your hearing is our guide track we did whilst tracking drums) soundcloud.com/davidsmyth/sets/ep-drums

We didn't record to click, as it uncomfotable to us, and speeding up and down slightly isn't a major issue

Could it be because our drummer doesn't get to practice much, as his kit is in our studio, and as a band we haven't rehearsed for a while?

Or could there be some other reason for it?

Please help

Dave :(
Click to expand...

Am i going blind? Where are the tracks?
 
daveonthebass said:
My band are attempting to record out ep, and to me the drums just seem so sloppy, the main culprit being the kick drum!

This is out 2nd attempt of tracking the drums and they still seem shit to me (I like things to be perfect, i don't want to sound like a crap band)

Take a listen to the tracks here (roughly mixed, the other track your hearing is our guide track we did whilst tracking drums) soundcloud.com/davidsmyth/sets/ep-drums

We didn't record to click, as it uncomfotable to us, and speeding up and down slightly isn't a major issue

Could it be because our drummer doesn't get to practice much, as his kit is in our studio, and as a band we haven't rehearsed for a while?

Or could there be some other reason for it?

Please help

Dave :(
Click to expand...
I see what you mean, the timing seems good, but the kick drum does seem to need a bit more sharpness to it. It is particularly lacking in the heavy symbols part. does seem to perhaps need turning up just a little, but I cant really help with anything else, just clarifying the problem. Although having said problem, I would not have noticed it if you hadn't said anything, especially if it had all the other instruments playing.
 
Don't mean to sound harsh (excuse the pun) but the reason you don't like to record to a click is because your timing is way off and you probably are unable to, now this may be just the drummer and not you... but until your drummer can record along side a click like a machine this is going to be sloppy... could be a practice issue, could be just a bad drummer. Some can be done in editing to improve timing depending, but it can be time consuming and frustrating -the best thing is to just have it nailed before recording.

The other thing about the kick that stood out to me is that the frequency of the bass guitar clashes with the kick drum. You need to do some eqing on the bass, it sounds too dry .. bring the high end way down on the bass and play around with the low end until you have a more rounded bass sound.
 
The drummer can play OK but the timing is hit and miss, the drummer needs to practice to a click track so that he realises that when he tries to fit in the harder parts he is adjusting the timing to fit the hits in and coming out of it at a different tempo. If he does some daily practice for a few months using the click (metronome) things will improve as fundamentally he can play fine. This is what separates good drummers from great drummers.

While the drummer is doing the click practice, the rest of the band need to do the same thing with click track practice so they don't put him off when you are playing together. Everyone should practice to a metronome, this is not to say you have to record to one but practicing to one improves you understanding of timing. Thats why you always see the little piano student with the metronome clicking away.

Cheers
Alan.
 
This isn't really a click issue. It's a groove issue. While they are somewhat related, a good drummer can groove regardless of click. In fact, the click may throw him off even more! He can clearly play but he's not flowing and probably thinking too much. The kick is definitely the biggest culprit. He's early AND late - the push/pull problem. There's no studio trickery that can fix this. He simply has to practice more.

I would sit down with him and have him listen to the performance. Point out to him how his kick drum is early and then late and give a clear example in his playing. Maybe if he hears it and then mulls it over for a while it'll help him concentrate on the areas that he's lacking.

Cheers :)
 
Oh, otherwise, I wanted to say the actual drum sounds you're getting are pretty good! Good work!

Cheers :)
 
Mo Facta said:
This isn't really a click issue. It's a groove issue. While they are somewhat related, a good drummer can groove regardless of click. In fact, the click may throw him off even more! He can clearly play but he's not flowing and probably thinking too much. The kick is definitely the biggest culprit. He's early AND late - the push/pull problem. There's no studio trickery that can fix this. He simply has to practice more.

I would sit down with him and have him listen to the performance. Point out to him how his kick drum is early and then late and give a clear example in his playing. Maybe if he hears it and then mulls it over for a while it'll help him concentrate on the areas that he's lacking.

Cheers :)
Click to expand...

I'm not really talking about recording to a click, I am talking about practice with clicks to tighten up your own playing. Practicing with a metronome or click really helps to show up if you have any timing issues. I agree with everything else you said, he could be a very good drummer and the sound is fine.

For example the drummer in my own current band won't record with a click as he does not like clicks, however he does not need to as the timing is fantastic. I was having a listen to the raw tracks from our new album with another producer / engineer (no vocal just Drums, rhythm and bass) and there was a 8 bar stop, where I will sing a vocal line, he said where was the count or click? When I said we did not use one he was amazed, the stop is a perfect length. This type of playing comes from practice, for practice now he plays along to CDs, this is the same as playing to a click just more fun. Nothing comes without practice and dedication.

Alan.
 
Mo Facta said:
He's early AND late - the push/pull problem. There's no studio trickery that can fix this. He simply has to practice more.


Cheers :)
Click to expand...

I haven't heard the track but.....If it's the "push pull" problem it could be
fixed if the drums are dropped into Pro tools. You can use Elastic Audio
to fix the timing and quantize so that it grooves whichever way you want.
But in the grand scheme you're right the drummer should get better
at playing to a click so that editing will be minimal.....
 
witzendoz, no stress dude. I wasn't saying you were saying anything. Just giving my thoughts.

I agree with you so we're on the same page.

Cheers :)
 
Legolas1971 said:
I haven't heard the track but.....If it's the "push pull" problem it could be
fixed if the drums are dropped into Pro tools. You can use Elastic Audio
to fix the timing and quantize so that it grooves whichever way you want.
But in the grand scheme you're right the drummer should get better
at playing to a click so that editing will be minimal.....
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was trying to stay away from time stretching studio whoziwhatzitz. Better to just get on with being a better performer.

You can "fix" it, yes, but will it sound good and natural? Slim chance.

Cheers :)
 
Mo Facta said:
Yeah, I was trying to stay away from time stretching studio whoziwhatzitz. Better to just get on with being a better performer.

You can "fix" it, yes, but will it sound good and natural? Slim chance.

Cheers :)
Click to expand...

I hear you.....But Elastic Audio is pretty slick. You can groove quantize
and make things sound amazingly good and natural.........
 
Legolas1971 said:
I hear you.....But Elastic Audio is pretty slick. You can groove quantize
and make things sound amazingly good and natural.........
Click to expand...

Actually, I agree.
While I'd 100% prefer to be able to get a good take, elastic audio has been pretty seamless for me, under certain circumstances.

I don't quantise to the grid, I just manually move things that sound out.

Having said that, say the kick and snare are meant to sound together, but the kick has been struck early.
If you move the kick you'll still hear the 'wrong' early one in the overheads, and if you adjust the overheads to suit, you'll hear the snare (that was fine) coming in late.

It doesn't always win.
You're relying on the drummer doing the right thing at the wrong time, which you can't always trust them to do. :p
 
Steenamaroo said:
Actually, I agree.
While I'd 100% prefer to be able to get a good take, elastic audio has been pretty seamless for me, under certain circumstances.

I don't quantise to the grid, I just manually move things that sound out.

Having said that, say the kick and snare are meant to sound together, but the kick has been struck early.
If you move the kick you'll still hear the 'wrong' early one in the overheads, and if you adjust the overheads to suit, you'll hear the snare (that was fine) coming in late.

It doesn't always win.
You're relying on the drummer doing the right thing at the wrong time, which you can't always trust them to do. :p
Click to expand...

Right....I never even considered that. Truth be told, I use BFD2 for my drums so
that issue doesn't come up for me.....
 
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