single mic. can it be done ??

maxman65

Member
Let's assume you have a good neutral stable recording environment . A decent quality large diaphragm mic with a wide cardioid pattern . With optimal placement could you really attain a fairly high quality and full and balanced capture of an acoustic guitar and vocal together . I've tried to research if any artists around maybe the 70s or earlier did this on respectable recordings. I very much doubt it but I suspect there's a fair few people on here who will have some answers .
 
It depends... :)

You just have to experiment, and find balance point between the voice and the guitar where to position the mic.
Right off...you'll probably need to put the mic a bit further away than how you would normally sing into a mic or use it just on guitar.
Of course, the room reflections will also come into play, so besides position the mic, you need to experiment where to position yourself and the guitar.
 
Yes I figured you'll need to be absolutely optimal on placement . I guess what I wondered is at its very best how compromised would it really be . That's why I wondered if there's any reference on known artist recordings
 
It really doesn't matter with others have done, because your situation is not going to be identical to what someone else did.
The really simply answer is....experiment and hear how it sounds. That's really the best way to formulate your opinion on how well it works for you.
 
You need three things:
1. Acoustic environment that flatters the source
2. Good Mic placement
3. Performer that has appropriate dynamics.

For the third one, you can't have a loud guitar and quiet singer, or loud singer with a quiet guitar. The performance has to be right, because there will be no way to mix it later.

Yes it can be done.
 
Yes. Third point is a great one . I was beginning to notice somehow that by muting the guitar down there's more space for vocal . Almost like a kind of 'live mixing '. I hadn't really thought about that consciously. I've been testing the water and listening without having really rationalised that one . Great input .many thanks
 
Yes. Third point is a great one . I was beginning to notice somehow that by muting the guitar down there's more space for vocal . Almost like a kind of 'live mixing '. I hadn't really thought about that consciously. I've been testing the water and listening without having really rationalised that one . Great input .many thanks

Like when the conductor points at the strings, 'signs up, up..
 
It can be done, of course, but it really limits you. Even if you want to always record guitar & vocal together, just adding a second mic, almost any mic, so you can have a little ability to balance the tracks will make your life far easier. If you have a decent dynamic, SM58/57, put that on your voice and keep the condenser more focused on the guitar, would be my suggestion.

Mic technique, as in "working the mic" is not going to be as important if you're using a single mic because it's going to be far enough away that small changes in angle or distance won't be as noticeable. So, from that standpoint, it might make some things easier. But, you won't be able to punch in a fix as easily, if at all, because you'll have to recreate everything for both parts. At least that's my experience. Learn to do it all in a single take.

Here's a video from therecordingrevolution.com about single mic recording. He does a subsequent one on using 2 mics, which is what he actually recommends.

YouTube
 
You need three things:
1. Acoustic environment that flatters the source
2. Good Mic placement
3. Performer that has appropriate dynamics.

For the third one, you can't have a loud guitar and quiet singer, or loud singer with a quiet guitar. The performance has to be right, because there will be no way to mix it later.

Yes it can be done.

Thats the key to unlocking your quest. In particular, point 3

But my question @ maxman65 is, why aren't you experimenting instead of just asking about it on the internet.
The internet is great, but there's sometimes too much 'virtual world' and too little 'real world'.
:D
 
I remember watching a video/documentary about the origins of reggae music and saw a segment about a recording session done with the engineer standing on a chair holding a mic while the band surrounded him and played and sang. Not positive but I think it was Jimmy Cliff.
 
Yes basically I have pretty limited equipment so far . Ie an 8 track dp008ex which is not pro kit. The inbuilt condensers are very small lending a thin sound to a vocal . I figured getting a fairly decent budget large condenser capturing mainly vocal and some guitar and for the second Input (only allows 2 simultaneously ) the right hand internal mic picking up at around neck /body join . Sort of like making the best of a bad job .or use the stereo mics for guitar then overdubbing with a large diaphragm for vocal
 
I've done tons of experimenting.the bottom line is you will not get a decent vocal out of the mini condenser mic in that machine . Placement / environment / gain / compression etc. I'm trying to add a decent large diaphragm mic when I get one and figure out how to get the best from that
 
Yes basically I have pretty limited equipment so far . Ie an 8 track dp008ex which is not pro kit. The inbuilt condensers are very small lending a thin sound to a vocal . I figured getting a fairly decent budget large condenser capturing mainly vocal and some guitar and for the second Input (only allows 2 simultaneously ) the right hand internal mic picking up at around neck /body join . Sort of like making the best of a bad job .or use the stereo mics for guitar then overdubbing with a large diaphragm for vocal

What's your goal? Writing? Demos, capturing ideas? Why not just get one inexpensive condensor and a dynamic such as a SM57/58 and use them both instead of the cheap internal mics.
Besides the poor mic quality, it's awfully hard getting good mic placement when you have to lug the whole machine around. :)
 
Yes I agree maybe that's the way. I was hoping to see how much better i could get just getting one mic . I've a separate thread in the tascam section addressing questions on the limitations of the machine itself irrespective of external mics.ie can I be confident that ext mics will actually make a significant difference or are there inherent limitations in the circuitry of what is a very entry level recorder
 
Yes I agree maybe that's the way. I was hoping to see how much better i could get just getting one mic . I've a separate thread in the tascam section addressing questions on the limitations of the machine itself irrespective of external mics.ie can I be confident that ext mics will actually make a significant difference or are there inherent limitations in the circuitry of what is a very entry level recorder

Some music that made it into billboard top ten lists in the 90s was done on ADAT, a 16 bit VHS format recorder. Your 'lowly' little 8 track Porta studio already exceeds the ADAT.
Never diparage your gear.
With even a couple hundred bucks in mics, some skill, a decent room, and again, some skill, one can get excellent professional results. :)
 
Yes that was hoping to hear . Any more than 8 track would do my head in so I wouldn't really want to spin out in that direction . The real key is that a decent mic done right can capture a respectable vocal . And it is really almost impossible using the internal mics. You could probably use both stereo for the guitar but the vocal won't work I've tried .....alot
 
Yes the iron and wine album done on casette 4 track was confidence boosting as far as equipment neurosis is concerned
 
If your guitar is an electro-acoustic, it might be worth a try to record the combined sound of the vocal and the guitar with a mic on one channel and plug the guitar into the other channel to record the guitars pickup. Blend in the plugged in side in the mics mix afterwards.
 
3. Performer that has appropriate dynamics.
That really should be number 1. If you've got a compelling performance of interesting material, you can get away with a whole lot. Heck, if you manage to get a truly singular and inspired performance of really good material, people will just be glad somebody captured it at all. Robert Johnson made about 20 recordings and they all sound horrible, and everybody just wishes there was more. Bust out your camera phone and shoot it. The world will thank you. (Though actually these phones nowadays aren't as bad as you might think. They'll surprise you sometimes.)

OTOH, if it ain't worth recording then again it doesn't much matter how you do it. If it sucks, it sucks, and fancy studio tricks aren't going to help.

I would argue that single mic or stereo pair really is the right way to record a lot of acoustic singer/songwriter material. That's what it fucking sounds like! Record it. If you don't want it to sound like that, why are you even doing it? Do something else. Do you really need/want it to sound all polished and hyper-real? You real need to compress and eq the crap out of each instrument? You'll need to record them separately. Period. I'm not actually saying that polished/hyper-real is wrong. What I'm saying is you can't do it well by recoding both at the same time. But if you're happy with what you're hearing in the room, then record it. You're about done.

Yes, that means a good performance first. Then a decent room. Then you need to move things around until you like what you hear. I will always start with mic somewhere off center from every dimension in the room and the performer a couple feet back. Then listen and tweak from there. A good way to do it might be to just move around the room until you hear the balance and tone that you want and then put the mic there. Course, that's a lot easier when the performer is not also the tracking engineer. ;) Get a friend or your kid to move the mic around while you listen on headphones or whatever.

Sometimes in small rooms it's best to put the mic right at one of the boundaries. If you've got low ceilings, putting the mic on the floor or the ceiling can alleviate a lot of the ugly quick reflections, almost making the space infinitely large in that direction. You can do this with walls too. We usually want to stay out of corners, but rules are meant to be broken, and if it gets you closer to what you want to hear...

You don't get any magic answers, though. If you have reasonable expectations, but know what you want, and you are willing to put in the time and effort to find it, you'll come up with something that nobody will complain about. If you just stick the mic where somebody told you to and then wonder why it doesn't sound exactly the way you thought it would...???


Edit to add - I try not to point the mic right at any flat surface - especially like walls. It's not something you hear very often, and I'm sure in the grand scheme of things, it's a minor concern, and if you really wanted to do it right, you'd do the old mirror trick, but usually just angling the thing a little on every axis works well enough. There's a lot of math (and possibly some neurosis) involved in why I do this, but I think it helps, or at least is a safe place to start.
 
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