Rock Guitar Tone & Phasing

peritus

peritus

The not fountain head
So.....

Here's the situation:

Mid Size room.. 25W x 15L x 8H

Tube Guitar Amplifier (i.e. Orange, Hi-Watt, etc.)
4x10 Guitar Cab (i.e. Marshall, Mesa, etc.)
Quality Electric Guitar (i.e. Les Paul Custom, ES335, etc.)

We have many microphones, but our all-purpose setup is SM57 and HD421, side by side, on the top left speaker...

Mic's are almost on the grill cloth...

HD421 is pointed almost directly at the center of the "dome"... We use the "2 clicks away from "M" (music) setting, on the roll-off..

SM57 is pointed directly at the edge of the "dome"...

Both mic's will be panned hardish left and right

Mic levels are equalized (peaking just below -6 dbfs...

We check the phase using our Digi 002's mono switch...

Now... This works pretty well. However, I am convinced that we can improve on this technique or maybe develop an alternate... It just seems to me that the phase always leaves something to be desired..

Can anyone offer any advice on this topic? I realize tone is something in the ear of the beholder... However, my favorite tone is very "vintage".. It just seems to me that certain important techniques have been forgotten...

Anyone know any specifics about led zep tone and guitar miking?



Thanks

P.S. Heres a cool link

http://www.eqmag.com/story.asp?sectioncode=41&storycode=8148
 
In order from best to worst.


-double track guitars and use 1 mic from each take.

-Zoom in, and shift the tracks in time once their in your computer so that they line up.

-Use a variable phase shifting plugin.
 
If you are really worried about phasing, a Little Labs IBP may be in order. The IBP is an excellent tool for helping to reduce phasing issues form the get go. A lot of stuff can be fixed with plugins and time shifts etc... during mixdown, but that is just covering up the problem and does not allow you to try different angles and placement to get things right. With the Little Labs tool you can know from the get go that you have things the way they need to be so you do not have to hope that any issues are reparable later.
 
BRIEFCASEMANX said:
In order from best to worst.


-double track guitars and use 1 mic from each take.

-Zoom in, and shift the tracks in time once their in your computer so that they line up.

-Use a variable phase shifting plugin.
Click to expand...

Yeah I forgot to mention that.. We do double track, but normally with both mics... My personal recommendation is usually to flip the channels (L to R and visa versa), on the second take..

Double tracking with 1 mic on each take sounds like a pretty solid plan.. Even doing one mic on the first and two on the second sounds pretty cool (maybe even using a third model of mic)...

The zooming in thing I've tried too.. Sounds GREAT too.. Is this normal procedure, at the upper echelons of recording? My problem with this is a Pro Tools thing... When we use two mic's, we use a stereo track.. And when you use a stereo track you can't, that I know of, nudge one over a few samples... While it's always an option to do two mono tracks, that requires a bus to doing any Renaissance AX-type stuff (Unless, of course, you just use two plug-ins.. :()....

By variable phase shifting, I'm assuming you mean something similar to the "Short Delay" plug-in, from pro tools... Yeah, that works too, same problems as sliding though.. If I had to chose I'd prolly go the sliding route, since it's not an extra plugin..

Cool.. Thanks
 
xstatic said:
If you are really worried about phasing, a Little Labs IBP may be in order. The IBP is an excellent tool for helping to reduce phasing issues form the get go. A lot of stuff can be fixed with plugins and time shifts etc... during mixdown, but that is just covering up the problem and does not allow you to try different angles and placement to get things right. With the Little Labs tool you can know from the get go that you have things the way they need to be so you do not have to hope that any issues are reparable later.
Click to expand...


Hey, that thing is amazing.. I want one!

Thanks man... Getting rid of phase issues with a knob would make recording a whole lot more fun.. :D
 
I think it's really a matter of further training of the ears. You really have to know what your listening for and what you're trying to accomplish by flipping things into mono.

You're really listening for two things in mono: phase cancellation and blending of your sounds. Phase cancellation being pointed out by a warbling, almost chorus-like effect as well as a degree of tonal thinning. Blending pertaining to things such as EQing to get things to stand out while maintaining a relative tone to all the other elements in your song.

Something I do, and this is something I learned from people whom I apprenticed from, is to leave things in mono until mixing. Especially when dealing with distorted guitars (I assume thats what youre working with).

So while tracking, you're thinking in your head to leave the pan knobs at 12 oclock for the entire session. You try and bring things out through the use of EQ, mic selection and/or mic placement, but all the while, you leave things centered.

It takes a while to get used to the akwardness of leaving your mix in mono, but you quickly realize that if you get it to sound as best you can in mono, once you start panning things out, it suddenly becomes an "ahhh" moment. Things kind of fall into place.

Even into mixing, I prefer to leave things centered until I start bringing in time-based effects. I occasionally flip it back to mono to check for phasing problems. Think about your song showing up on mono speakers (potentially on bar speakers, or supermarket speakers).

A cool thing to try in situations where you are multiple micing a guitar cab is to wear your headphones in the live room while you adjust the mics. If you don't have the seperate control room to isolate the monitors, simply mute them.

In terms of phasing issues with distorted guitars, I think the margin for getting it to fit better becomes a lot smaller. However, there are ways to minimize the phasing, which translates to "better sounding guitars".

I learned it could be anything from how accurately the guitarist actually double tracks, mic placement/preamp selection to EQ and the amount of gain you use on the amp when you track. Can't say I've done it with plug-in "fix its", but then again, I haven't felt it's really nessessary. Not if you can get it to sound good way before that.

I've found that lower gain settings come out more defined in the mix than higher ones. Kind of like how rain in real life sounds like rain, but when recorded to tape can sound like white noise. It's mush. So therefore, you do things to compensate for that blurring of definition. There's an element of sound design there.

I'm not exactly sure about two different mics on the same source to be panned hard left/right versus blending the two. I honestly would prefer blending the mics, with the option to double track. But that's just my opinion.
 
Last edited:
peritus said:
The zooming in thing I've tried too.. Sounds GREAT too.. Is this normal procedure, at the upper echelons of recording? My problem with this is a Pro Tools thing... When we use two mic's, we use a stereo track.. And when you use a stereo track you can't, that I know of, nudge one over a few samples... While it's always an option to do two mono tracks, that requires a bus to doing any Renaissance AX-type stuff (Unless, of course, you just use two plug-ins.. :()....
Click to expand...

record to a stereo track if you want...then create 2 new mono tracks. Drag the stereo track's regions onto those mono tracks and adjust the phasing problem. Then when you have it the way it's supposed to sound, drag it back up to the stereo track. That way your edits and effects all stay on that track.

By variable phase shifting, I'm assuming you mean something similar to the "Short Delay" plug-in, from pro tools... Yeah, that works too, same problems as sliding though.. If I had to chose I'd prolly go the sliding route, since it's not an extra plugin..
Click to expand...

no, I think he means something like PhaseTone from TriToneDigital (a free RTAS plugin you can get). I prefer just to fix the timing differences of the two mics.
However, if you want to use a short delay plugin, you CAN adjust each channel separately. Short Delay Multi-mono gives you two different controls in one window...multi channel allows you to switch back and forth (the default is set to linked though)
 
LeeRosario said:
I think it's really a matter of further training of the ears. You really have to know what your listening for and what you're trying to accomplish by flipping things into mono.

You're really listening for two things in mono: phase cancellation and blending of your sounds. Phase cancellation being pointed out by a warbling, almost chorus-like effect as well as a degree of tonal thinning. Blending pertaining to things such as EQing to get things to stand out while maintaining a relative tone to all the other elements in your song.

Something I do, and this is something I learned from people whom I apprenticed from, is to leave things in mono until mixing. Especially when dealing with distorted guitars (I assume thats what youre working with).

So while tracking, you're thinking in your head to leave the pan knobs at 12 oclock for the entire session. You try and bring things out through the use of EQ, mic selection and/or mic placement, but all the while, you leave things centered.

It takes a while to get used to the akwardness of leaving your mix in mono, but you quickly realize that if you get it to sound as best you can in mono, once you start panning things out, it suddenly becomes an "ahhh" moment. Things kind of fall into place.

A cool thing to try in situations where you are multiple micing a guitar cab is to wear your headphones in the live room while you adjust the mics. If you don't have the seperate control room to isolate the monitors, simply mute them.

In terms of phasing issues with distorted guitars, I think the margin for getting it to fit better becomes a lot smaller. However, there are ways to minimize the phasing, which translates to "better sounding guitars".

I learned it could be anything from how accurately the guitarist actually double tracks, mic placement/preamp selection to EQ and the amount of gain you use on the amp when you track.

I've found that lower gain settings come out more defined in the mix than higher ones. Kind of like how rain in real life sounds like rain, but when recorded to tape can sound like white noise. So therefore, you do things to compensate for the blurring of definition.

I'm not exactly sure about two different mics on the same source to be panned hard left/right versus blending the two. I honestly would prefer blending the mics, with the option to double track. But that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...

I agree with most everything you said.. I must confess, however, that I think it's a technical fault of mine, rather than a listening one...

As far as recording without panning, I couldn't agree more.... That makes gobs of sense.

Thanks for your input... I'm coming to the conclusion that some of my intelligent guesses are indeed fact... and I'm going to recommend some reform with our procedure..
 
bennychico11 said:
record to a stereo track if you want...then create 2 new mono tracks. Drag the stereo track's regions onto those mono tracks and adjust the phasing problem. Then when you have it the way it's supposed to sound, drag it back up to the stereo track. That way your edits and effects all stay on that track.
Click to expand...

Hmm.. Didn't think about it that way... Good point..

bennychico11 said:
no, I think he means something like PhaseTone from TriToneDigital (a free RTAS plugin you can get). I prefer just to fix the timing differences of the two mics.
Click to expand...

Ahh.. I see.. Yeah.. Sliding sounds like the ticket....

bennychico11 said:
However, if you want to use a short delay plugin, you CAN adjust each channel separately. Short Delay Multi-mono gives you two different controls in one window...multi channel allows you to switch back and forth (the default is set to linked though)
Click to expand...

Yep.. My mistake... Please pardon my oversight...

Thanks BC..
 
As far as tone, I'd take the mic off of the dustcap ("dome") myself. That element is not part of the loudspeaker driver itself and is not meant to be a signifigant part of the sound reproduction of the loudspeaker. It is, literally, a (usually paper) dust cap meant to keep dirt and other crap from getting inside the voice coil assembly, nothing more.

In general (with the usual exceptions), mic the inner part of the speaker cone where the voice coil is located for a sharper, faster and cleaner sound - usually with the mic on an angle pointing inward by a few degrees just to take advantage of the cardiod rejection characteristsics to tame the amount of sound coming from the outer edge of the cone near the surround. Mic nearer the outer edge of the speaker cone for a warmer, slower, more distorted sound, usually with the mic fairly straight on.

I have both the 57 and the 421 and like them both for git cab miking. As far as which one is placed where on the cab varies by cab. There are a lot of factors regarding mic placement, but to keep it short, let me give you a nice shortcut studio trick that often works well:

With nothing plugged into the head (youll understand why in a second ;), turn the amp up until the hiss becomes readibly audible. Crouch down and sick you ear right up the the grille like if it were a mic (this is why you have nothing like a guitar plugged in a the time, if you like to keep your ears from bleeding :) .) Move your ear around the cabinet and find the location where the hiss counds the brightest and clearest. Stick your primary mic there. Decide on the second mic, if it's even necessary and where you want to take it in tone, after getting that primar mic dialed in.

YMMV, there are a million ways to mic a git cab. But I find the above simple general guidelines to work fine most of the time.

G.
 
peritus said:
I agree with most everything you said.. I must confess, however, that I think it's a technical fault of mine, rather than a listening one...

As far as recording without panning, I couldn't agree more.... That makes gobs of sense.

Thanks for your input... I'm coming to the conclusion that some of my intelligent guesses are indeed fact... and I'm going to recommend some reform with our procedure..
Click to expand...


it's my pleasure. And if you do discover any new findings, always write them down :D

Helps me all the time.
 
Miking the back of cabs yeild some great results too! Just be sure to phase reverse it, ten flip it back in your DAW.


-LIMiT
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
As far as tone, I'd take the mic off of the dustcap ("dome") myself. That element is not part of the loudspeaker driver itself and is not meant to be a signifigant part of the sound reproduction of the loudspeaker. It is, literally, a (usually paper) dust cap meant to keep dirt and other crap from getting inside the voice coil assembly, nothing more.

In general (with the usual exceptions), mic the inner part of the speaker cone where the voice coil is located for a sharper, faster and cleaner sound - usually with the mic on an angle pointing inward by a few degrees just to take advantage of the cardiod rejection characteristsics to tame the amount of sound coming from the outer edge of the cone near the surround. Mic nearer the outer edge of the speaker cone for a warmer, slower, more distorted sound, usually with the mic fairly straight on.

I have both the 57 and the 421 and like them both for git cab miking. As far as which one is placed where on the cab varies by cab. There are a lot of factors regarding mic placement, but to keep it short, let me give you a nice shortcut studio trick that often works well:

With nothing plugged into the head (youll understand why in a second ;), turn the amp up until the hiss becomes readibly audible. Crouch down and sick you ear right up the the grille like if it were a mic (this is why you have nothing like a guitar plugged in a the time, if you like to keep your ears from bleeding :) .) Move your ear around the cabinet and find the location where the hiss counds the brightest and clearest. Stick your primary mic there. Decide on the second mic, if it's even necessary and where you want to take it in tone, after getting that primar mic dialed in.

YMMV, there are a million ways to mic a git cab. But I find the above simple general guidelines to work fine most of the time.

G.
Click to expand...


Cool stuff..

Yeah.... The thinking behind using the 421 as the innermost mic was the idea that the center produces the highs.. Since we like the 421 for toms, it's bass end sounds great in nearly any position (on the toms)...And for this reason, using the 421 in the center seems to bring out both the bite (of the center) and the kick (of the surround)... The 57 is where it is because we believed it would do well picking up the "mids" (and I use that term very loosely)....

Sounds like Brian and I need to have a big guitar tone adventure day sometime soon...

Thanks!
 
LeeRosario said:
it's my pleasure. And if you do discover any new findings, always write them down :D

Helps me all the time.
Click to expand...


Will do...

One of the things I didn't mention, that actually makes for a noticeable improvement in tone is the fireplace...

It sounds ghetto, but it isn't really as bad as it sounds...

We mix/compute upstairs and we track downstairs.. It just so happens that there is an old fireplace at one end of the basement, with a deep textured brick face... When we point the cab in that direction (usually about 4 feet away), it adds some pretty cool diffusion/reflection and such... I honestly believe that the actual fireplace chamber (aka the hole where you put the burning wood) acts like a quasi-reverb-slash-basstrap chamber...

lol.. It's all in good fun and worked pretty awesome when we recorded congas and bongos...

:)
 
LIMiT said:
Miking the back of cabs yeild some great results too! Just be sure to phase reverse it, ten flip it back in your DAW.


-LIMiT
Click to expand...


Yep.. Been wanting to do some more experimenting with that one for awhile... I'm thinking it would yield a more boxy sound though.. True?

Thanks :)
 
peritus said:
Yep.. Been wanting to do some more experimenting with that one for awhile... I'm thinking it would yield a more boxy sound though.. True?

Thanks :)
Click to expand...


Sometimes...it depends...(obviously) on the material/gear etc ...

I have had awesome results blending this tracked tone in with the front of the cab mics for some HUGE sounds though. I've also used the front mics panned L and the rear mic panned R with some awesome results.

Best thing to do is just put one back there,..move it around while listening with headphone to all mics on the cab, and blend the bright front and the low back. Try it out :)

Cheers,

LIMiT
 
You shouldnt get much phasing if the 2 mics are (almost exactly) the same distance from the source. Especially if you are panning the recordings. I would rather double take with2 mics rather than double take with 1 mic or single take with 2 mics.
Eck
 
bennychico11 said:
yes..........
Click to expand...

lol.. What do you think about them?

I tried to install SignalTools some time ago.. Installation went normally, but the plugins never show up in PT.... I need to figure it out though.. This plug-in looks sweet...
 
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