Regarding the human voice ....what is stereo? What is panning? What's the difference?
- Thread starter Weissey
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mjbphotos
Moderator
Think of it this way:
Stereo - you are looking into a room and the speaker (person doing the 'spoken word') is standing over on the right of the room as you face that way. Without turning your head, he starts speaking, you hear it it mostly in your right ear, but somewhat in the left as well due to room reflections). Then while continuing to speak, he walks across the room in front of you to the left. You slowly hear more of the osund in your left ear, and when he is directly in front of you, you hear the osund equally in both ears, then whne he gets to th eleft wall, you hear it mostly with your left ear.
That's stereo, think of putting a microphone on each of your ears to record it (binaural recording).
Now if you record him while standing directly in front of you (not moving) wiht 2 microphones (one on each ear) each one picks up amost exactly the same sound, right? So you can see there is no purpose in recording a single point sound source with 2 microphones (unless there are enough room characteristics coming into play that each mic would get something different as well as the original sound source).
Panning - do you have a stereo system with a 'balance' control? Play some simple music, turn the balance from left to right, hear the sound 'move'? That's panning - where you put the sound in the left-to-right location.
Stereo - you are looking into a room and the speaker (person doing the 'spoken word') is standing over on the right of the room as you face that way. Without turning your head, he starts speaking, you hear it it mostly in your right ear, but somewhat in the left as well due to room reflections). Then while continuing to speak, he walks across the room in front of you to the left. You slowly hear more of the osund in your left ear, and when he is directly in front of you, you hear the osund equally in both ears, then whne he gets to th eleft wall, you hear it mostly with your left ear.
That's stereo, think of putting a microphone on each of your ears to record it (binaural recording).
Now if you record him while standing directly in front of you (not moving) wiht 2 microphones (one on each ear) each one picks up amost exactly the same sound, right? So you can see there is no purpose in recording a single point sound source with 2 microphones (unless there are enough room characteristics coming into play that each mic would get something different as well as the original sound source).
Panning - do you have a stereo system with a 'balance' control? Play some simple music, turn the balance from left to right, hear the sound 'move'? That's panning - where you put the sound in the left-to-right location.
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Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
if you're recording spoken word then there's absolutely no purpose in using two mics ........... none.
Just use one mic and pan it centered.
SeaGtGruff
Member
I know what you mean, but that isn't panning per se, it's simply adjusting the relative volumes of two separate audio channels-- e.g., if 100% of a particular sound in a stereo recording were coming from the left speaker because it's contained entirely within the left audio channel, turning the balance control all the way to the right wouldn't redirect the sound to the right speaker, it would merely mute the left channel entirely.
@OP: Panning is adjusting the left/right positioning of a single channel that's being directed to two output channels or speakers-- i.e., the original sound (recorded track) is really mono but you can move (pan) it left and right. If you've got, say, 16 individual tracks, you can control the panning for each of them to control its positioning within the left-to-right spectrum. The 16 tracks are separate but if you play the mix through left/right speakers-- or direct the output to two (left/right) channels to create a stereo recording of the mix-- the 16 tracks will be blended together and the panning for each track will determine whether the sound for that track seems to come entirely from the left, entirely from the right, from dead center, etc.
If you're recording a person speaking/singing and nothing else, there's no reason to record in stereo with two microphones unless you're specifically trying to capture the sound as heard by someone in the room-- i.e., two ears capturing the sound, with variations in the left/right audio caused by the speaker moving left or right, or by the listener turning his/her head a bit to the left or right, or from the way the sound bounces around the room and is affected by the different acoustical properties of the left and right sides of the room, etc. It's much simpler to just record in mono with one microphone, as Lt. Bob said. The default pan setting will center the sound between the left and right channels/speakers, but you could adjust the panning to move the sound left or right of center.
So are you guys saying it's basically useless to record in stereo a singer/acoustic guitarist playing live? It seems so.
I've visited a few musicians sites where they tell people to record their live vocal/guitar in stereo, in order to get that spacious stereo sound. And they give lots of info about using 2 mics at once, in certain positions, in order to achieve stereo. I've tried it, but for some reason I get results that are no more stereo sounding than mono. But I'm told here on this site that stereo for a voice (and presumably acoustic guitar) is no good.
I'm confused.
I've visited a few musicians sites where they tell people to record their live vocal/guitar in stereo, in order to get that spacious stereo sound. And they give lots of info about using 2 mics at once, in certain positions, in order to achieve stereo. I've tried it, but for some reason I get results that are no more stereo sounding than mono. But I'm told here on this site that stereo for a voice (and presumably acoustic guitar) is no good.
I'm confused.
R
RAMI
Guest
Yes, that's obvious.
Maybe it's because you asked two completely different questions. At first, you asked this. (You even used the word "specifically")........
Now, you're talking about this.........
Now everyone's confused.
MrWrenchey
New member
Not sure who's telling you that, but they're wrong. Especially if it's a singer songwriter, I personally love recording the acoustic in stereo. Plenty of people do that.
It's just vocals. There is no point in stereo recording a vocal. The closest thing to that which would be useful would be recording a vocal part twice in mono and panning each out (ie, doubling).
SeaGtGruff
Member
If you reread the last paragraph of what I said, it isn't useless-- but it really depends on what you're trying to achieve, as well as the situation.
In a studio environment, where you're recording a performer or group of performers and you want the maximum amount of control over the finished product, it's generally best to record each individual separately (presumably in mono) so each performer has a separate track that's recorded as "pristinely" as possible and that can be carefully and individually controlled in the final mix-- which includes any panning that will be applied to each track to control where the sound for that track seems to be coming from as far as left/right/center is concerned.
But if you're recording something "live"-- be it a single speaker/singer/performer or a group-- and you either can't record each performer separately or else prefer to record them as a whole performance, then it's better to record in stereo to get that spaciousness you mentioned, since you can't easily separate each individual performance from the recording and then carefully control the volume/panning/etc. in the final mix.
So-- what is the situation and desired result? If the speaker is on a stage and you're trying to capture his/her recitation in a manner that lets the listeners feel as though they're there in the audience, then by all means record in stereo so you get the spaciousness and any acoustical effects of the speaker's spoken word bouncing off of different parts of the room-- not to mention things like audience coughs (was the person who coughed sitting on the left side of the room or the right side?), and things like that.
But you asked about panning, which is something that's generally applied to a mono recording or sound source to control the amount of volume being sent to the left and right channels in order to manipulate the perceived position of that sound source within a stereo (left/right) spectrum.
So-- is it on a stage, or in a studio? And is there anything else that will be in the final mix besides "the spoken word of one person," such as background music to a book that's being read by someone? (You didn't specify the situation or the nature of the performance, so I don't know.) If you're recording someone speaking in a studio and there's nothing else that will be mixed in, then you might as well record in mono and control the "stereo" effect through the panning. But if you want to record the speaker in stereo then panning doesn't really enter into the picture-- instead, you'd want to just balance the volumes of the left and right channels as needed.
Edit: PS-- I should state that I have no real experience in recording. I originally joined this forum so I could answer someone's question about a keyboard, and also because I wanted to learn more about using DAWs. So anything that anyone else here says about recording undoubtedly carries a lot more weight/real-life-wisdom than anything I might say.
I'm merely trying to reply from a common-sense viewpoint.
Mandatory disclaimer:
[Cocking head to one side and shaking head]"I'm not an expert!"
[Cocking head to other side and smiling with a gleam in eye]"...But I play one on the internet!"
In a studio environment, where you're recording a performer or group of performers and you want the maximum amount of control over the finished product, it's generally best to record each individual separately (presumably in mono) so each performer has a separate track that's recorded as "pristinely" as possible and that can be carefully and individually controlled in the final mix-- which includes any panning that will be applied to each track to control where the sound for that track seems to be coming from as far as left/right/center is concerned.
But if you're recording something "live"-- be it a single speaker/singer/performer or a group-- and you either can't record each performer separately or else prefer to record them as a whole performance, then it's better to record in stereo to get that spaciousness you mentioned, since you can't easily separate each individual performance from the recording and then carefully control the volume/panning/etc. in the final mix.
So-- what is the situation and desired result? If the speaker is on a stage and you're trying to capture his/her recitation in a manner that lets the listeners feel as though they're there in the audience, then by all means record in stereo so you get the spaciousness and any acoustical effects of the speaker's spoken word bouncing off of different parts of the room-- not to mention things like audience coughs (was the person who coughed sitting on the left side of the room or the right side?), and things like that.
But you asked about panning, which is something that's generally applied to a mono recording or sound source to control the amount of volume being sent to the left and right channels in order to manipulate the perceived position of that sound source within a stereo (left/right) spectrum.
So-- is it on a stage, or in a studio? And is there anything else that will be in the final mix besides "the spoken word of one person," such as background music to a book that's being read by someone? (You didn't specify the situation or the nature of the performance, so I don't know.) If you're recording someone speaking in a studio and there's nothing else that will be mixed in, then you might as well record in mono and control the "stereo" effect through the panning. But if you want to record the speaker in stereo then panning doesn't really enter into the picture-- instead, you'd want to just balance the volumes of the left and right channels as needed.
Edit: PS-- I should state that I have no real experience in recording. I originally joined this forum so I could answer someone's question about a keyboard, and also because I wanted to learn more about using DAWs. So anything that anyone else here says about recording undoubtedly carries a lot more weight/real-life-wisdom than anything I might say.
I'm merely trying to reply from a common-sense viewpoint.Mandatory disclaimer:
[Cocking head to one side and shaking head]"I'm not an expert!"
[Cocking head to other side and smiling with a gleam in eye]"...But I play one on the internet!"
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mjbphotos
Moderator
Right - I was trying to give the OP a simple example of what panning means.
Thanks for the replies.
What I'm basically saying is that when I record in stereo using 2 spaced mics, it sounds no different than when I record in mono using 1 mic, whether or not I listen through headphones or speakers.
The reason I referred to the spoken voice is that I wanted to simplify it, so someone could show me how to get a stereo sound with just the voice.
When I record my acoustic guitar with 2 spaced mics, the same thing happens ...... it sounds no different to mono with 1 mic, regardless of mic placement.
My question refers to nothing other than a solo vocalist/acoustic guitarist recording live into a recorder. All other situations don't apply to me, as I'm only interested in recording myself only, and in a "live" situation, meaning singing and playing at the same time into a recorder.
I've heard many solo, live, studio/home recordings of solo artists (one voice/one guitar) that sound "stereo", but I can't get anywhere near that "spaciousness" in the recorded sound.
What I'm basically saying is that when I record in stereo using 2 spaced mics, it sounds no different than when I record in mono using 1 mic, whether or not I listen through headphones or speakers.
The reason I referred to the spoken voice is that I wanted to simplify it, so someone could show me how to get a stereo sound with just the voice.
When I record my acoustic guitar with 2 spaced mics, the same thing happens ...... it sounds no different to mono with 1 mic, regardless of mic placement.
My question refers to nothing other than a solo vocalist/acoustic guitarist recording live into a recorder. All other situations don't apply to me, as I'm only interested in recording myself only, and in a "live" situation, meaning singing and playing at the same time into a recorder.
I've heard many solo, live, studio/home recordings of solo artists (one voice/one guitar) that sound "stereo", but I can't get anywhere near that "spaciousness" in the recorded sound.
A voice, a guitar, is a mono instrument. One sound from one source. You can't "record it in stereo". You can record it with multiple mics, but that doesn't make it "stereo". What you're doing with two or more mics is recording the instrument and the space. How you pan and treat those tracks can provide a pseudo-stereo image.
That spaciousness you seek can be achieved with a lively room, or with delays and reverb.
That spaciousness you seek can be achieved with a lively room, or with delays and reverb.
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
You should be able to hear a difference between a source recorded with one mike, and a source recorded with two.
If you can't, it means there is a problem somewhere in the process. For example, you could have set the output to mono somehow. Or maybe the two mike are recording to one mono track. Or maybe they are each recording to separate tracks, but each of those tracks has the pan control in the central position, instead of one being far left and the other far right.
So go through and do a check on these possibilities
Yeah. I was reading through this thread thinking that the OP is under the impression that using two mics is automatically a stereo recording - no matter what. And that is not correct. Single point sources can't be recorded in stereo.
However, I would say that an *acoustic* guitar could be recorded in stereo. One mic captures the "strummed half" of the instrument and the other captures "fingered half."
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Actually....almost most sources can be considered "mono"...yet we record them in stereo all the time.
Take a drum kit....OH mics on a drum kit are often done in stereo....but a drum kit isn't really a "stereo".
Stereo comes from the mike technique, not so much the source.
Of course, the wider/bigger the source, and the more ambience in the space, then the more pronounced the stereo effect, as picked up by a stereo pair of mics.
AFA using it on vocals....yeah, it can work, and depending on the mic setup and the room ambience, it will sound different than mono if you panned both dead center and compared. The stereo effect on a vocal may very well get lost in most mixes....but it can work well in some. Like if you were doing a single acoustic and vocal....I wouldn't hesitate to go with stereo miking on both, and still pan them basically in the center.
It's not going to make them appear to come from L/R (which is what a lot of people think "stereo" has to sound like), they will still both be in the center....but stereo miking will add depth/character to the sound that mono-miking won't have.
But again....in a busy mix, it would be a waste for a vocal.
I've stereo-miked a lead guitar off a single cab....and it actually sounds cool. Still generally monophonic in its direction, but just more 3-D sounding.
Take a drum kit....OH mics on a drum kit are often done in stereo....but a drum kit isn't really a "stereo".
Stereo comes from the mike technique, not so much the source.
Of course, the wider/bigger the source, and the more ambience in the space, then the more pronounced the stereo effect, as picked up by a stereo pair of mics.
AFA using it on vocals....yeah, it can work, and depending on the mic setup and the room ambience, it will sound different than mono if you panned both dead center and compared. The stereo effect on a vocal may very well get lost in most mixes....but it can work well in some. Like if you were doing a single acoustic and vocal....I wouldn't hesitate to go with stereo miking on both, and still pan them basically in the center.
It's not going to make them appear to come from L/R (which is what a lot of people think "stereo" has to sound like), they will still both be in the center....but stereo miking will add depth/character to the sound that mono-miking won't have.
But again....in a busy mix, it would be a waste for a vocal.
I've stereo-miked a lead guitar off a single cab....and it actually sounds cool. Still generally monophonic in its direction, but just more 3-D sounding.
The difference between drums and say a vocal or guitar is that drums really do come from all around the listener. You have to be very far away from a drum kit to lose it's "stereo" image. Sit at a drum kit, stand in front of a drum kit, even in a crowd at a bar or club, the you can tell when the hats come from one side and the ride from the other. That to me makes it a "stereo" instrument. It's a pile of isolated mono sounds that come at you as a stereo image. It makes sense to "stero mic" a drum kit with overheads. Especially if the rest of the mix is gonna have stuff panned all over the place creating a stereo mix. And you could also mono mic it with one overhead if you so desire. To a lesser degree, a piano kind of acts the same way. It's large enough that the low end and high end can be perceived as coming from different sides of the instrument. I suppose something like a xylophone would be the same.
Guitars and vocals don't really act that way. Electric guitars can if you're using a stereo cab setup with stereo effects. Vocals, not so much. Not at all. You can mic a vocal with ten mics if you want, it's still not really a "stereo" source.
Guitars and vocals don't really act that way. Electric guitars can if you're using a stereo cab setup with stereo effects. Vocals, not so much. Not at all. You can mic a vocal with ten mics if you want, it's still not really a "stereo" source.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Right....but again, "stereo source" doesn't apply to anything that I can think of. Even a pair of cabs is not a "stereo source".
It's all in the mic technique.
Our ears are like stereo mics, so if it's a wide drum kit or a vocal, they do pick up both in stereo. Only difference is that a vocal is much more centered and without the L/R spread. Mono miking is like covering one ear.
There's nothing inherently wrong with using a stereo pair on a vocal or anything for that matter....and it does sound different than a single mic. I'm not saying it's common to stereo mic everything, just that it's also not to be frowned on.....but how it well it comes across in the mix really depends on the music and other elements, so it could be ineffective.
Bruce Sweiden made use of stereo miking many of the elements in a lot of the MJ sessions, and again, it wasn't to get a wide L/R image, like you can with drums, as we both said....it's more to get the depth and 3-D character.
I was personally intrigued about this approach, and on one of the recent songs I recorded...I think I did stereo pairs for just about everything. Maybe just one or two items were done mono, and I have to say, even when panned dead center, a stereo pair track sounds "bigger" than a mono.
Again...not saying vocals should or shouldn't be done with stereo mics....just saying that it does work, and the amount of audible benefit from that depends on the production. Anyone doing more "sparse" recordings, more ambient stuff with smaller track counts should at least try it out. It was a bit of a PITA for me, as I was tracking to tape, so a bunch of stereo pairs eats up my 24 tracks quick, forcing me to do multiple dumps to DAW, but other than that, the worst of it is setting up stereo mics, as not all setups will work on everything, as mentioned below in this interview quote.
Bruce Swedien: Recording Michael Jackson
It's all in the mic technique.
Our ears are like stereo mics, so if it's a wide drum kit or a vocal, they do pick up both in stereo. Only difference is that a vocal is much more centered and without the L/R spread. Mono miking is like covering one ear.
There's nothing inherently wrong with using a stereo pair on a vocal or anything for that matter....and it does sound different than a single mic. I'm not saying it's common to stereo mic everything, just that it's also not to be frowned on.....but how it well it comes across in the mix really depends on the music and other elements, so it could be ineffective.
Bruce Sweiden made use of stereo miking many of the elements in a lot of the MJ sessions, and again, it wasn't to get a wide L/R image, like you can with drums, as we both said....it's more to get the depth and 3-D character.
I was personally intrigued about this approach, and on one of the recent songs I recorded...I think I did stereo pairs for just about everything. Maybe just one or two items were done mono, and I have to say, even when panned dead center, a stereo pair track sounds "bigger" than a mono.
Again...not saying vocals should or shouldn't be done with stereo mics....just saying that it does work, and the amount of audible benefit from that depends on the production. Anyone doing more "sparse" recordings, more ambient stuff with smaller track counts should at least try it out. It was a bit of a PITA for me, as I was tracking to tape, so a bunch of stereo pairs eats up my 24 tracks quick, forcing me to do multiple dumps to DAW, but other than that, the worst of it is setting up stereo mics, as not all setups will work on everything, as mentioned below in this interview quote.
Bruce Swedien: Recording Michael Jackson
Beerhunter
Barley Processing Unit
Already been said but ya, pan one left and one right. Bump one of the tracks by 10 ms or so to fatten it up
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Mmmmmm...not really.
Everything is basically a mono source, there's no such thing as a "stereo source" AFIK.....it's just picked up in stereo by our ears or a pair of mics.
Sure, something sound wider in stereo than others, and we may choose to mic/mix them more with a stereo approach....but that doesn't make them a "stereo source", and narrower sound sources like a vocal, automatically "mono".
And as mentioned....stereo miking things like a vocal or guitar cab isn't really about trying to get a wide-spread, it's about the depth and 3-D character, which is different than when using a sing
All you need to do is try it and you can hear the differences....
