Recording a Grand Piano

Massive Master said:
I have to admit, it's been a while with those and maybe they've made some upgrades -- But wow... Hated 'em. Just hated 'em.
Click to expand...

I'm a C1000 apologist. I used to be a big hater of these mics until I tried them on things other than what you'd think they'd be aimed at. They're FANTASTIC on electric guitars, particularly clean and edgy blues guitar. They're a very good toms mic too.

And, for a bit of interesting info, Maynard's vocals on Tool's Undertow were recorded solely with a C1000. I shit you not. Check out the Sylvia Massy Q&A on Gearslutz.

But yes, they are not good for everything, particularly overheads, which is what they're mostly used for. If your cymbals even have a smidge too much copper in them they're going to sound like tin cans. My theory is that because they're a cheap mic they make it into the hands of a lot of novices so they get a lot of flak for bad sound when it could very well be the bad micing technique of the novice.

Piano? I think they'll do the job. The piano has beautiful overtones. If the source is smooth, the mic's response will have minimal effect and you'll probably get a pretty decent piano sound.

They're better than nothin.

Cheers :)
 
Mo Facta said:
I'm a C1000 apologist.

Piano? I think they'll do the job. The piano has beautiful overtones. If the source is smooth, the mic's response will have minimal effect and you'll probably get a pretty decent piano sound.

They're better than nothin.
Click to expand...


No - the C1000 is inappropriate for recording a Steinway Grand Piano - they will lose all the bottom end.

They start rolling off at 200Hz and are -10dB at 50Hz with no measurement below 50Hz!

AKG C1000 frequency response.jpg

The mics I use for a Grand Piano have a frequency response like this:-

MK_221_Frequenzen_gr.jpg
Although these are measured down to 20Hz here, they are actually flat down to 5Hz.
 
John Willett said:
No - the C1000 is inappropriate for recording a Steinway Grand Piano - they will lose all the bottom end.

They start rolling off at 200Hz and are -10dB at 50Hz with no measurement below 50Hz!

View attachment 85694

The mics I use for a Grand Piano have a frequency response like this:-

View attachment 85696
Although these are measured down to 20Hz here, they are actually flat down to 5Hz.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the lesson but for a novice they are his best choice, not to mention all he has. I assume he does not have access to DPAs or Schoeps.

Let's be realistic here. It won't sound amazing but it will "do the job" as I put it.

Cheers :)
 
Mo Facta said:
I assume he does not have access to DPAs or Schoeps.
Click to expand...

I don't have access to a DPA or Schoeps, either. I use something better ;)



Mo Facta said:
Let's be realistic here. It won't sound amazing but it will "do the job" as I put it.
Click to expand...

But you *can* get affordable omnis that will do the job far far better than a C1000.

The Line Audio OM1 is an excellent affordable mic. that sells for under £100 (£93 +VAT at the current exchange rate).

OM1.jpg

So, for less than £200 you can have a pair of omni mics with a flat frequency response similar to what I posted above that would be far far better at recording a grand piano on a budget.

OM1plot.png

It's a no-brainer - the OM1 is inexpensive, very affordable, and has a quality way above the price you pay.

I would not even touch a C1000 for the application the OP wants when a pair of OM1 is so affordable.

He is recording a piano that costs in excess of £100,000.00 - he is recording his fiancée playing a new composition - this is important and not a recording to take lightly and mess up with inappropriate microphones.

If money is really so tight that even the OM1 is unaffordable - then I would take a pair of omni tie mics and stick (use a hypo-allergenic version of blue tac or Rycote stickies - ie: something that will not mark the finish of the piano) them to the lid - this will turn them into boundary mics and will work far better than a C1000 and a dynamic mic.
 
pavel_shalman said:
Hi, I'm new to recording myself, but best to my knowledge you need 48.000 khz to sink audio track with video.
Click to expand...

I presume you mean 48kHz (48,000 Hz) and *not* 48,000 kHz (48,000,000 Hz) as you wrote :D

Yes, you need 48kHz to sync. with video, but you need 44.1kHz for CD.

Personally, I would record at 24/96 (24-bit / 96kHz) and then down-convert for each media.
 
John Willett said:
I don't have access to a DPA or Schoeps, either. I use something better ;)





But you *can* get affordable omnis that will do the job far far better than a C1000.

The Line Audio OM1 is an excellent affordable mic. that sells for under £100 (£93 +VAT at the current exchange rate).

View attachment 85713

So, for less than £200 you can have a pair of omni mics with a flat frequency response similar to what I posted above that would be far far better at recording a grand piano on a budget.

View attachment 85711

It's a no-brainer - the OM1 is inexpensive, very affordable, and has a quality way above the price you pay.

I would not even touch a C1000 for the application the OP wants when a pair of OM1 is so affordable.

He is recording a piano that costs in excess of £100,000.00 - he is recording his fiancée playing a new composition - this is important and not a recording to take lightly and mess up with inappropriate microphones.

If money is really so tight that even the OM1 is unaffordable - then I would take a pair of omni tie mics and stick (use a hypo-allergenic version of blue tac or Rycote stickies - ie: something that will not mark the finish of the piano) them to the lid - this will turn them into boundary mics and will work far better than a C1000 and a dynamic mic.
Click to expand...

Better than DPA or Schoeps? So you're a boutique snob, eh? ;)

My point was that the OP didn't mention a desire or capacity to buy new mics. He told us what he had access to. I haven't heard the Line Audio mics you mentioned but I'm sure they're good. If the OP has cash, then I would say get 'em.

Cheers :)
 
Mo Facta said:
Better than DPA or Schoeps? So you're a boutique snob, eh? ;)
Click to expand...

No, not at all - for piano I use Sennheiser MKH 20 or 8020, Neumann KM131-D or Microtech Gefell M221.

It was a bit "tongue in cheek" to say "better", but they are at least equal to DPA and Schoeps (who I know very well).

My two favourite omnis are the MKH 20 and the M221.



Mo Facta said:
My point was that the OP didn't mention a desire or capacity to buy new mics. He told us what he had access to. I haven't heard the Line Audio mics you mentioned but I'm sure they're good. If the OP has cash, then I would say get 'em.
Click to expand...

The OP was talking about doing an important recording on a top quality piano using inappropriate microphones.

Line Audio have long had the reputation of making exceptional mics at a very affordable price and a pair of the OM1 is a no-brainer if you need decent omnis and don't have the dosh.

Personally, I would rather not record at all than have to use a C1000 on a piano - I would go out and hire instead.
 
If you had time I'd say buy a matched pair of Naiant mics Naiant - Microphones and do what Mr Willett suggests as those mics are pretty good, particularly as matched pairs, and very reasonably priced.
If money & time are a problem or you can only run with what you have not still set up as suggested by Mr W but consider that some EQing may be needed at the bottom end.
Do some testing and trials before deciding though as the room will have an impact. Good headphones that will isolate your ears mind - don't go with buds or anything that'll leak too much.
Oh, and binaural is just a little more complicated than a separating blankie. I do love binarual but the how of listening is as critical as the how of recording if the effort is being made to do it.
The naiant Mics aren't nearly as flat as the ones mentioned Naiant but they are quite nice. I have an MHS-1 and an MHS-4 and they work well in a variety of circumstances.
 
Last edited:
John Willett said:
No, not at all - for piano I use Sennheiser MKH 20 or 8020, Neumann KM131-D or Microtech Gefell M221.

It was a bit "tongue in cheek" to say "better", but they are at least equal to DPA and Schoeps (who I know very well).

My two favourite omnis are the MKH 20 and the M221.





The OP was talking about doing an important recording on a top quality piano using inappropriate microphones.

Line Audio have long had the reputation of making exceptional mics at a very affordable price and a pair of the OM1 is a no-brainer if you need decent omnis and don't have the dosh.

Personally, I would rather not record at all than have to use a C1000 on a piano - I would go out and hire instead.
Click to expand...

I hear ya. Those mics are very good indeed.. You clearly do more live piano recordings than I do.

However my point was that in a Home Recording forum it's more about getting the most out of what you have than suggesting a novice goes out and rents or buys mics he's not familiar with or may or may not have the money for.

If he's got the cash, great, rent some Microtechs or buy the Line Audios. I just didn't recall reading him wanting to or being able to go that route.

FWIW, I would never use C1000s on piano either as I have Pearl Prioritys and STC 4038s that I would use for that purpose. Another thing is that it can be a great exercise for a novice to experiment with what's available, even if they are C1000s.

Cheers :)
 
rayc said:
If you had time I'd say buy a matched pair of Naiant mics Naiant - Microphones and do what Mr Willett suggests as those mics are pretty good, particularly as matched pairs, and very reasonably priced.
Click to expand...

Reasonably priced - yes - but look at the frequency response - it rolls off at the bottom end like a cardioid mic. and the top end is quite ragged.

X-O_Response_Curve.GIF
 
Mo Facta said:
I hear ya. Those mics are very good indeed.. You clearly do more live piano recordings than I do.
Click to expand...

I do record piano recitals more than anything else ;)


Mo Facta said:
However my point was that in a Home Recording forum it's more about getting the most out of what you have than suggesting a novice goes out and rents or buys mics he's not familiar with or may or may not have the money for.

If he's got the cash, great, rent some Microtechs or buy the Line Audios. I just didn't recall reading him wanting to or being able to go that route.

FWIW, I would never use C1000s on piano either as I have Pearl Prioritys and STC 4038s that I would use for that purpose. Another thing is that it can be a great exercise for a novice to experiment with what's available, even if they are C1000s.

Cheers :)
Click to expand...

Yes, but .....

The pianist is the OP's fiancée - the piano is a Steinway (£100,000 +) and the works are new compositions.

Putting this together means that this is quite special.

Doing this on a budget would really mean something like the Line Audio OM1 or, as a last resort, a pair of tie mics stuck to the lid.

Putting it all into context - taking his fiancée out to a show and a meal will cost more than a pair of the OM1 - and, for the sake of a special recording like this, I would sacrifice one night out for the cost of a pair of the OM1. ;)

PLUS - as his fiancée is a pianist, the OM1 would be a great investment for recording her again in the future. :thumbs up:
 
Mr Willett,
Yep they are - that's why I added the link to the graph - slightly better on the bottom end than the mics that were in discussion and a bit more jagged as you say at the top end.
I do reonforce that the OP should set up as described by you.
The virtual boundary idea on the lid is interesting and does make a big point of pintlessness with some gear.
 
I'm betting at this point (from the lack of the OM's participation) that he's already done the deed, one way or another.
 
I have done a lot of grand piano recording. Tried them all, came up with this and it works great, everytime! 2 cardioid condensers, 2 tall stands. Place one on each side even with the music sheet lyre. Aim one in at the bass end, aimed just short of center. Aim the other in the same way from the treble side. They should be at least 3 feet up from the piano.. works GREAT! natural, not too close no odd reflections, high enough to not get the pedal noise.

SOBN said:
Hello all!

First time poster so please bear with me. This weekend, I'm going to be recording my fiance perform a few new compositions by an Italian composer for a grand piano (unsure of if it'll be a Steinway or Fazioli at this stage).

She's borrowed some equipment for her college's studios. From what I understand, it's one dynamic and a small diaphragm condensor, into a tascam. Will also be recording video as well.

I'm very new to the recording game, I usually just play music. My understanding is dynamic mic on the bass end and condensor at the treble end of the piano? Any tips on positioning of the mics would be much appreciated.

Aiming for sample rate of 24 bit/44.1 khz. Buffer size 256/512? The room will be medium sized room, wooden floors, high ceilings.

All those values seem about right?

Any thing I need to be mindful of during the recording? We want to make it as high quality as we can (within the limits of our equipment) as there aren't any recordings online or on youtube for these new pieces. Hoping for them to be a good reference for future people wanting to perform them.

THANKS GUYS.

Ben
Click to expand...
 
sloop said:
I have done a lot of grand piano recording. Tried them all, came up with this and it works great, everytime! 2 cardioid condensers, 2 tall stands. Place one on each side even with the music sheet lyre. Aim one in at the bass end, aimed just short of center. Aim the other in the same way from the treble side. They should be at least 3 feet up from the piano.. works GREAT! natural, not too close no odd reflections, high enough to not get the pedal noise.
Click to expand...

But loses the bottom end.

Sound radiates from a grand piano like this:-

pianofig1.l.gif

So your suggestion does get the right angle, it seems.

But for a solo recital in a good room I will never use a directional mic. as the piano sounds thin in comparison to using an omni.

I like to place a pair of omni mics to get the best balance between the piano and the room, bearing in mind the work(s) being played.

I go on the premise of "how do an audience hear a piano?" and try and recreate this in the recording.
 
John Willett said:
I do record piano recitals more than anything else ;)




Yes, but .....

The pianist is the OP's fiancée - the piano is a Steinway (£100,000 +) and the works are new compositions.

Putting this together means that this is quite special.

Doing this on a budget would really mean something like the Line Audio OM1 or, as a last resort, a pair of tie mics stuck to the lid.

Putting it all into context - taking his fiancée out to a show and a meal will cost more than a pair of the OM1 - and, for the sake of a special recording like this, I would sacrifice one night out for the cost of a pair of the OM1. ;)

PLUS - as his fiancée is a pianist, the OM1 would be a great investment for recording her again in the future. :thumbs up:
Click to expand...

Fair point, so I concede. The OM1s will definitely be a great investment anyway so I say go for it! Somehow I missed the bit that it was a Steinway.

My mistake.

Cheers :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top