Recording / Doubling Rap Vocals

djorbit007

New member
Hello all, just want to thank you ahead of time.

Here is my problem. I have been trying to double vocals for a rap artist, but i cannot get the technique right. I have read many posts on this forum and tryed many things, but i just dont think i am doing it right.

Here is the equipment being used:

Sony C800G into AMS Neve 1073 DPA into Avalon 737sp into ProTools Digi 002

Neve:
Only using the neve as a preamp.

Avalon Settings:
Only using the avalon for compression, settings are 3:1 rato, -3 to -5 on the threshold, 100hz cutoff, no eq, no preamp.

I hear alot of rap and r&b on the radio and im trying to get the vocals to sound similar to those. I know we got decent equipment, but i truely believe there is a step i am missing.

Any help you could provide me would be appreciated. Sorry if i am sounding like a newb.


-Dj Orbit
 
Not sure what you're looking for, but I've struggled with rap vocals a couple times and ended up getting really nice results with 2 mics, and some heavier comp settings than those you say you've been using. Sorry I don't recall the settings, but I do remember crushing it quite a bit.
 
I am using very minimal compression, from what i understand, to much compression sucks the life out of the vocal, but i do not know if this is so for rap vocals.

The actual vocals seem to be fine as far as compression goes, i am more concrened with the doubling of the vocals. The ones i hear on cd's and the radio just have this certain tone / sound to them that i am trying to replicate.

I have tryed panning the maing vocal to the left, recording a double and panning to the right. Sounds okay, but not what i expected.

Have also tryed recording main vocal, copying to another track, backing it up 500 - 1000 samples, lowering the volume. Sounds okay as well, just not as expected. Tends to sound to doubled.

I am not using any fx on the vocals what so ever, maybe this is one of the problems? i really have no idea, this is why i am coming to you all for your expertice. -=)

-Dj Orbit
 
It's all in the mix man.

Not only how you mix the vocals, but how you mix the music. Also, what is the arrangement like? Most pro hiphop artists have economic music designed to deliver a tight vocal arrangement. Also the performance of the artist is critical--if the MC sucks you're not going to get a "pro" sound no matter what you use or do to it.
 
you got some nice equipment there bro. I've heard that on some brittany spears tracks the vox are layered like 30 or 40 times over or some shit. I don't know if there's truth to that, and I can't see why that would be done... but that's crazy..

Ok.. I'm not very helpful, just wanted to give you props on having nice gear! Peace!
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
It's all in the mix man.

Not only how you mix the vocals, but how you mix the music. Also, what is the arrangement like? Most pro hiphop artists have economic music designed to deliver a tight vocal arrangement. Also the performance of the artist is critical--if the MC sucks you're not going to get a "pro" sound no matter what you use or do to it.
I had thought it was the artist, so i tryed 2 different ones and got the same result. The beats we are using are pretty simply, kick drum, snares, simple basslines, and music instruments such as pianos, violens, etc... which are all coming from a korg triton.

I am doing some recording later this week, i am thinking about posting a sample for you all to hear, one raw, and one that i try some doubling techniques on.

Once again, thank you for your help and input.
 
I did a similar project a few years ago with a young guy who had never recorded before. We did two takes of the whole track (to cut and paste them into one great take) and when I accidently pushed both faders up at once he was abosolutely perfectly in time with himself in everyway... accents, emphesis, tone, pitch, timing... all spot on. It was freaky!

That's what we used in the end. His first two takes.

To help merge them a little I cut some frequencies from one and left them in the other and then vice versa. This helps them sit together without fighting for space. Also don't be afraid of using a short reverb with loads of early reflections. It can really help it work in the mix and stay in your face.

It sounded pretty good before I did any eqing but it was even better afterwards. A great performance does wonders!
 
Well the methods for backing vocals that work well for me are...

1. try a differant microphone for the backing tracks (My setups way cheaper than yours but I use a dynamic(sm-57) intead of a condenser on the backing vocals) it seems to help it sit better in the mix to me...

2. Rolloff any lowend in the backing vocal sometimes I'm a little extreme with this...

3. Another trick is to run the backing track through a delay panned hard right with the backing track hard left then tap tempo...

Try compressing the life out of the backing vocal and sitting it in the mix the life should be comming from the main vocal anyways...

I'm not sure what sound you're shooting for but chances are if your reference cd is some commercial rap EVERYTHING is compressed to the point of no return from the instruments to the vocals.

good luck
 
Try making two duplicates of the vocal track, delay one by 20ms and the other by 30ms and pan them hard left and hard right with the original in the center.

Experiment with the levels of the duplicate tracks and see what happens.


the tortoise.
 
earthboundrec said:
you got some nice equipment there bro. I've heard that on some brittany spears tracks the vox are layered like 30 or 40 times over or some shit. I don't know if there's truth to that, and I can't see why that would be done... but that's crazy..

Ok.. I'm not very helpful, just wanted to give you props on having nice gear! Peace!
Thanks man, i knew we were headed in the right direction with the gear. Now to only figure out the rest. Everyone here has been real helpfull, i thank you all again.


-Dj Orbit
 
I just did a track with a break in with some rapping over. I recorded one track and then recorded the same thing again but with the vari-pitch up by a couple of percent. When slowed back down to the normal speed you have to vocals doin exact same thing but with a rich sound.
Just a little trick I found sounds nice for doubling vocals.
 
You may want to do your best with one track and then have just the one track mastered. You may be surprised at how much mastering can affect everything in your mix.
 
ya its deff on the artist if hes off at all its gonna sound like garbage he gotta be on point eactly the same as the lead make him do it over an over again
 
Jbangz said:
ya its deff on the artist if hes off at all its gonna sound like garbage he gotta be on point eactly the same as the lead make him do it over an over again
We think our isolation booth is causing some of the problems. It is a 4x4 from soundsuckers.com and we get some complaints about there not being enough air inside, but when we switch on the ventilation fan, our mic picks up the rumble.

It sounds like the artists gasp for air sometimes, but when they are outside the booth, they can do it fine. I already wrote soundsuckers but have heard nothing back. You pay around 4g's for a booth, and you think it should work properly, i guess not.

Thank you all once again for your input.

PS
i used the technique mentioned above for doubling where you copy main vocal to 2 other tracks, pan one left, the other right, 20 ms delay on one and 30ms dealy on the other. THIS sounds so good. Pretty close to what i was imagining. I added a bit of reverb, and its sounding pretty good to me now. I will post up some samples as soon as i have them ready.


-Dj Orbit
 
djorbit007 said:
We think our isolation booth is causing some of the problems. It is a 4x4 from soundsuckers.com and we get some complaints about there not being enough air inside, but when we switch on the ventilation fan, our mic picks up the rumble.

It sounds like the artists gasp for air sometimes, but when they are outside the booth, they can do it fine. I already wrote soundsuckers but have heard nothing back. You pay around 4g's for a booth, and you think it should work properly, i guess not.

Thank you all once again for your input.

PS
i used the technique mentioned above for doubling where you copy main vocal to 2 other tracks, pan one left, the other right, 20 ms delay on one and 30ms dealy on the other. THIS sounds so good. Pretty close to what i was imagining. I added a bit of reverb, and its sounding pretty good to me now. I will post up some samples as soon as i have them ready.


-Dj Orbit

Wow.. That vocal booth situation sounds a little scary. You'd get all light headed after doing some takes... damn.. hopefully they'll fix it for ya.
 
djorbit007 said:
i used the technique mentioned above for doubling where you copy main vocal to 2 other tracks, pan one left, the other right, 20 ms delay on one and 30ms dealy on the other. THIS sounds so good. Pretty close to what i was imagining. I added a bit of reverb, and its sounding pretty good to me now. I will post up some samples as soon as i have them ready.


-Dj Orbit

That's great! Glad to hear it got some nice results.
:cool:
 
sounds like a coffin lol , but i dunno it might have nuttin to do with it once again its on the artist i see alot of artsit dont rap like they do outside the booth thats wats makes a rapper a great rapper there are plenty of rappers that are nice ojn the street bring them in a studio an youll see a diff
 
RecTechMin said:
have any of you used VocAlign?

http://www.synchroarts.com/products/vocalign/vocalign.asp

Supposed to be really useful for this very instance. Not exactly cheap, but maybe worth it if it can save you a lot of time.
I looked into voc-align, but from what i understood, it is used to align the pitch of 2 different artists, signing / rapping the same take. Other then that i have not heard it used in the doubling of vocals, I am going to download the trial and test it out.

Thanks again

-DJ Orbit
 
Vocalign is used for doubled vocals ALL the time. It doesn't align pitch, it aligns timing. Its perfect for getting doubled vocals to work together.

I don't really like it all that much, but its better than struggling with an artist who just CAN'T deliver 2 consistent performances. You can also do the same thing by hand (editting syllables and moving them around.) Takes more time, but its cheaper.

And I'd at least crack the door on the iso booth!!! Can't sing if you can't breath. :eek:

-C
 
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