Recording the back of a speaker cab

Uladine

Uladine

New member
I am currently in the process of finding a good tone for my guitar on a metal project. When I listen to songs by Meshuggah, Nevermore, and Soilwork I notice that there is something about the guitar tone that makes me drool. I know they all tune really low, but I don't think that is what I'm drooling over. I have my guitar setup to play in B, which is about as low as I want to go. I also realize theres no way to get the exact same tone as them of course, and I know that they used different equipment and all of that.

But upon studying a couple soilwork songs today, I think I realized what it is that I'm after. I think its the sound of the actual speaker cab itself blended in with the speaker signal. Theres something about the tone that reminds me of crawling behind a 4X12 cab looking for a power outlet while someone is playing through it at high volume. Of course this sound isn't too useful by itself, but blended in with the 57 I have on one of the speakers it just might get me closer to what I'm after.

Now that I just wrote a bunch of probably unnecessary stuff, its time for my actual question. What do I need to be aware of when miking the back/side of a 4x12 in terms of phase issues or any other possible problematic areas. For my rig I'm using a POD pro (speaker emulation disabled) into a power amp into a marshall 1960A 4x12 cab. I pretty much have the tone how I like it at the amp, and I'm mainly messing with mic techniques now. At my disposal are

1 sm-57
1 AT 4033/LE
2 C3000b's
2 cheap ass nady kick mics (which actually sound pretty good on a bass amp)
2 sm-58s

The mics are going into a mackie 24.4 VLZ mixer with XDR preamps, then into a sonar equipped PC. I plan on keeping all of the mic signals on seperate tracks so I can mess with the levels of each mic later. I'm also trying to record each mic with no EQ after the amp, as I've discovered that mic placement and the blending of different mic characters is probably better EQ than any electronic device on the market.




Sorry for babbling on so much, I've missed this place. Please forgive me.
:(
 
Wow. That is indeed a very focoused (and interesting) subject. Trying to capture a 'view' and preception of being behind the 'back line'.:cool:
I would not even begin to try to tell you where to put the mic! Naturaly, the biggest variables you would be playing with would be the hudge peaks and valleys in responce as you change cabinet, room, and mic positions, especially from the backside. You could obviously get about any collor of 'chunky' and thump you could imagin.
Both myself and my musician-mate have long apprecited some of the most primo-live sound can be had from the side of the stage. Warm, thick, (drum sound!) and way more natural than from 'The Stacks'. Often the best seat in the house, and sometimes one of the nice musician's perks.
Looks like you'll be doing some experimenting. Please keep us posted...:D
wayne
 
I do it all the time...mic the back of cabs that is...

I've been micing the back of cabs for years now and love the results, within reason.

I have an RCA 74b junior ribbon mic that I'll stick in the back of a 4x12 guitar cab. In the front I'll place an SM57 or ATM63.

Some people don't like the results of putting a mic in the back because it really pushes the mids. During mix I'll bring it up just below the front mic and clients are floored by the results. I know plenty of Producers in town that try and replicate the tones I get from my techniques but fall short.

I'd say the back mic gives more of a CB sounding quality to it. It emphasizes frequencies you don't hear from the front of the cab giving it a bit more girth without bottoming out. I've also tried using an SM58 or a D112 in the back with good results.

Make sure you can swap the pin phase cuz you could run into a problem where frequencies are being cancelled without that option.

I have a Marshall 1960A cab that most people use because I took the back off to point a mic right in the back of the cone. I did have one artist that came in back when I first started recording and he had a full solid state/digital guitar rig through a Marshall cab and he requested a mic in the back to achieve more of a 'tube' sound. The naive engineer I was at the time I didn't take the back of the enclosure and needless-to-say it sounded like crap (not the project overall but I ended up muting the mic in the back)

Some guitar players swear that by removing the back enclosure changes the sound of their set up. I can understand it to a certain point because the 'air' being pushed by the speakers dissipates out the back as opposed to the front. But if I'm micing the back it does compensate for that plus you don't get so much *foof* low feedback if it's at a loud level.

Yeah, experiment with it. I swear by the practice. Recently I've been putting 2 mics in front, a 57 and a ribbon but it all depends on what I'm doing. For metal I'll do the front/back thing. It always sounded nice and guttural to me.


--AdamLazlo

Check this out. I began archiving my microphone techinques on this page:

http://www.imagestation.com/members/AnalogElectric

I'll soon have more back micing techinques for guitars.
 
Would you typicaly pan the two sources? Maybe a little off topic- I had some good luck messing with splitting mic and di bass on a live tape. One centered, one off a bit to the side, does a nice spread and some movement when they have seperate dynamics on them.

Uladine said:
...Theres something about the tone that reminds me of crawling behind a 4X12 cab looking for a power outlet while someone is playing through it at high volume.
:(
Click to expand...
This is what got me started with the seperate dynamics thing..
There is something that would happen in you head (ears?), compression wise, in that kind of sound intense environment that's in there somewhere...

Hey, more babbling!
:)
 
This is really interesting.
I have a Leslie Cab. I've always miced the front.
It has openings on the top and both sides with the back fully enclosed except for a small opening at the bottom for the motor on/off jack.

Analog, would you suggest popping the back on this cab or micing the openings on the side, or both?

I also have a Marshall cab with a cutout at the bottom. If I were to poke a mic in that direction would I put it in the hole, or out of the hole pointing in? Or should I pop the back off on it also?

I've got to try this.

Yeah, like mixsit said, "Blab your heads off". ;)
 
Besides a mic on the back of the cab you could try a contact pickup{type you stick on a acoustic guit}...useing it like a stethoscope on the back of the cab..works well..I've done it a few times with good results..


Don
 
badgas said:
This is really interesting.
I have a Leslie Cab. I've always miced the front.
It has openings on the top and both sides with the back fully enclosed except for a small opening at the bottom for the motor on/off jack.

Analog, would you suggest popping the back on this cab or micing the openings on the side, or both?

I also have a Marshall cab with a cutout at the bottom. If I were to poke a mic in that direction would I put it in the hole, or out of the hole pointing in? Or should I pop the back off on it also?
Click to expand...

For Leslie cabs I'll leave it enclosed with a mic in the bottom or just outside the the bottom opening with a mic in the front and pan them a bit during mix (panning to whatever sounds best for other instruments).

I've been taking the back off but if you have a hole I'd stick the mic in pointing at the speakers and getting as close as you can to the cone. I generally put a mic directly 3" away from the cone pointing straight in. I think it would work fine with a cutout. I like to mic up a guitar amp with the two mics then feed headphones to the performance area in mono then listening to tone as I move the mic in various positions. You'd be surprised how much a faction an inch makes a difference in tone both for front and rear micing.

--AdamLazlo
 
Henri Devill said:
Besides a mic on the back of the cab you could try a contact pickup{type you stick on a acoustic guit}...useing it like a stethoscope on the back of the cab..works well..I've done it a few times with good results..


Don
Click to expand...

I've done this before also. It works okay for some things but I found it doesn't have as much of a direct signal or gets a little too much *woof* from the resonance of the enclosure. It's not as grainy as a mic directly in the back. In my opinion it works for quieter things but if a cab is rattling from volume it tends to emphasize that.

--AdamLazlo
 
Re: Re: Recording the back of a speaker cab

mixsit said:
Would you typicaly pan the two sources? Maybe a little off topic- I had some good luck messing with splitting mic and di bass on a live tape. One centered, one off a bit to the side, does a nice spread and some movement when they have seperate dynamics on them.


This is what got me started with the seperate dynamics thing..
There is something that would happen in you head (ears?), compression wise, in that kind of sound intense environment that's in there somewhere...

Hey, more babbling!
:)
Click to expand...

It's fooling the ears. Stereo imagining is a false representation of sound, (a whole other debate). There are some purists that believe MONO is the way music should be recorded. I don't know but I find instruments fit better in a stereo mix when you have one instrument panned slightly or drastically for a fuller sound. I do pan the front and back mic along with doing at least 2-3 guitar overdubs in the same way, panning them accordingly.

1st guitar- front mic all the way left, back mic at about 10o'clock.
2nd guitar - front mic all the way to the right, back mic at about 2o'clock.
3rd guitar - only a front mic at 12o'clock or a front and a back at 12o'clock.

It makes a pretty massive sound. Even having the 3rd guitar come in only for the chorus' or certain parts makes it sound really huge.


--AdamLazlo
 
Thanks Analog.
I'll try it and experiment with placement and let ya know how it turned out. ;)
 
sounds like youve got good gear, so you should definitely get a good sound. First, use your ears. You naturally set your guitar sound standing in a room probably a few feet away (if youre game) hearing and changing pedal and amp tones to suit you in that particular room. Then get your ear and put it right up to the grill and I guarentee it will sound different. (please dont do this, youll go deaf. How to achieve wat you hear. I have use a dynamic mic like an sm57 or seinheisser 421 in conjunction with a condenser (large or small diaphram) close mic with the dynamic and stich the condenser about 3 inches away, approximately one third of the way across the speaker from the outside. Dynamic gets the power and natural speaker compression and the condenser gets the full tonal spectrum of the speaker. Make sure you dont get phasing, and I have found this to produce a very clear sound. It has top end in it that u normally wouldnt get on a dynamic. U can mix it mono and it will sound hot, or u can pan them and it will also sound fantastic. With the condenser concept, if you are in a bad room, you will naturally pick up the yuckyness of the room, so you therefore need to set up your recording environment. Maybe introduce a matress and a few pillows. hang a blanket or 2 up, and youve got the room. Dont play the guitar in the same room or youll pickup the strings from the actual guitar, unless you stand some way from it, or if the amp is really loud. I think micing the back of the speaker could produce fantastic results as well, but be very careful of phasing, swap those pins around as was previously stated.

cheers
 
As for stereo being false, I think mono is false. Stereo accures everytime you walk into a room.. Sound sources set to the left of you will naturally come into your left ear, and same with the right. Then you have the reflections bouncing around, so even stereo reverb is legit.. It creates seperation naturally and therefore doesnt sound like one big source signal. The Grateful Dead where the ultimate in live stereo, in the real terms. Their sound sytem consisted of Front of House speakers dedicated to vocals and the speakers dedicated to guitars and seperate for the other instruments. This gave the cleanest and most convincing sound. Reason is simple, how accurately can a speaker really represent a sound, that is, go in and out so much and at so many varying depths for so many different ryhtms and frequencies created by the individul instruments and players. If you had a speaker dedicated for only vocal and one dedicated only guitar and then one dedicated only for bass, it would sugges that you should achieve a less confused sound. I know this sounds a little too much, but I got this from a person first hand, who has worked at places such as Abbey Road and other such facilities. I think stereo also creates less confusion for the speaker and the listener. But then so does, creating space within the music and it parts as well.

Cheers
 
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