Hey everyone, I have a pretty balanced sounding rhythm section for a song I'm putting together which has a single line classical guitar as the melody (with occasional overdubs from electric). I've done a very soft mix to clean up and make space for when I'm recording the melody. Mostly panning, gates on the drums, light reverb on certain tracks. When I go to track the classical it has very little presence over the full rhythm section, little sustain, and just overall very thin sounding and unattractive. I know this is more of a step in the mixing process, but with how little it sounds raw, I'm thinking I might have to rethink instrumentation for the melody, rather than record it sounding like this only to find I should scrap it in the mixing process. The guitar is being mic'd stereo with two different condenser mics, equidistant from sound source. I've tried: adjusting volume on the pro tools mixer to bring it above rhythm section, putting sends out to left and right aux tracks each with staggered delays and reverb to try to create more of a presence of the track. I've still not had a result that's convinced me I don't need to rethink my approach. For those interested, the guitar is a Cordoba C3M, a lower end Cordoba guitar. I know the value of recording a good sound at its source before mixing, and the guitar does have adequate sustain and volume, being an acoustic instrument. I'm just wondering if any of you have experience on doing something like this. The groups I love that do this manage to do it beautifully, and obviously have many more resources than I do, but I'm just feeling a little discouraged and am looking for a way to move forward. Thanks in advance for any input you have.
Putting an acoustic guitar in the lead
- Thread starter McKeon908
- Start date
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
There are some instruments whose quality of sound is determined not just by the instrument, but also by the nature of the space in which it is played. In a dead room, for example, a flute or a violin does not have a very attractive sound.
This can also apply to classical guitars. An audience listening to a classical guitar performance would be doing so in a venue that is contributing to the performance (e.g. a concert hall).
So this might be something to consider. You say you've tried delay and reverb without success. Think about a very large room reverb, but take care not to drown the guitar with it. However, whatever you do has to fit with the acoustic presence that the other instruments have. If they are pretty dry, then even a pleasant, airy acoustic lead might sound weird.
This can also apply to classical guitars. An audience listening to a classical guitar performance would be doing so in a venue that is contributing to the performance (e.g. a concert hall).
So this might be something to consider. You say you've tried delay and reverb without success. Think about a very large room reverb, but take care not to drown the guitar with it. However, whatever you do has to fit with the acoustic presence that the other instruments have. If they are pretty dry, then even a pleasant, airy acoustic lead might sound weird.
keith.rogers
Well-known member
Using 2 mics always introduces the risk of phase issues. Just to simplify things, what are you gaining by using 2 mics?
I have the best luck with a matched pair of SDCs on a bar in XY pattern if I'm going that (2-mic) route. Anything else takes time to set up and I have a fixed stand now with a short, low boom for the SDC and just tip the LDC toward the guitar. You still need to be aware that some kind of phase stuff can creep in, though.
In a mix, a lot of times I just use my (single) C214 about a foot away from the 12th fret - experiment with angle for bass. If that doesn't give you a big sound, you need start looking at the room, guitar, or player, not necessarily in that order.
P.S. (edit) It can't hurt to go back to your original tracks w/o any FX and just try to get a good/decent level mix with the guitar. If you can't make it at least listenable, well, there's something else going on.
I have the best luck with a matched pair of SDCs on a bar in XY pattern if I'm going that (2-mic) route. Anything else takes time to set up and I have a fixed stand now with a short, low boom for the SDC and just tip the LDC toward the guitar. You still need to be aware that some kind of phase stuff can creep in, though.
In a mix, a lot of times I just use my (single) C214 about a foot away from the 12th fret - experiment with angle for bass. If that doesn't give you a big sound, you need start looking at the room, guitar, or player, not necessarily in that order.
P.S. (edit) It can't hurt to go back to your original tracks w/o any FX and just try to get a good/decent level mix with the guitar. If you can't make it at least listenable, well, there's something else going on.
I've checked phase with the mics and tried both individually and concluded the stereo image of my acoustics with these two mics sound the best. The isolated sound is really good and I would definitely say it's close to the sound I'm modeling from. It's just when I play and listen back with the entire rhythm section it's not necessarily less audible than you'd want a melody to be, it just doesn't have much presence. Listening back, I think I might just be expecting results that would come after mixing. I was already digging the sound of the rhythm section, so I must have thought recording the melody over would really enhance it, when instead it just makes more need for mixing to bring out the most in the melody and harmony.
Farview
Well-known member
Since the classical guitar is going to carry the melody and be the focal point of the music, you should record it with one mic. Pan it center and probably compress the snot out of it.
A problem with recording a melody instrument in stereo is that you introduce a sense of space into the recording. When you do that with an instrument with a lot of dynamics, like a classical guitar, the sound will tend to get swallowed up by the denser instruments in the mix. That sense of space makes the sound more transparent, which is why it will get lost in the mix.
A mono recording is more focused and has more density, so it will cut through the mix better. Adding compression will also help with that.
A problem with recording a melody instrument in stereo is that you introduce a sense of space into the recording. When you do that with an instrument with a lot of dynamics, like a classical guitar, the sound will tend to get swallowed up by the denser instruments in the mix. That sense of space makes the sound more transparent, which is why it will get lost in the mix.
A mono recording is more focused and has more density, so it will cut through the mix better. Adding compression will also help with that.
JDsound
New member
I agree, the panning L/R of your single performance is going to reduce focus and impact, and introduce too much space. You can combine the two mic sounds, and use them as a mono track (send it to an aux, pan them the same way and blend as needed, etc.).
If you're dead-set on having a stereo guitar performance, you might consider recording two different performances, rather than one performance with two mics.
Though is do agree Farview in this case... center it, compress it hard, and really make it the focus.
All the best!
rob aylestone
Moderator
Before even miking the guitar, play the track on the studio monitors at a modest volume and play the classical guitar - then get at least a couple of people in the room to listen to how the real instrument works with the song. It's quite possible that they will say it's too quiet, and you have to turn down the track to an impractical level to let it sing through - if this is the case, it might just be the wrong intrument for the song. If it didn't work for me, I too would scrap stereo, which in my humble opinion rarely applies to a solo instrument in a mix - as you often end up with a hugely wide artificial instrument. My attitude is that you wouldn't record the lead vocal with two mics, and the same applies to a guitar. Maybe two mics combined in mono to produce a new sound? Sound hole for body and warmth and then something on the HF for some clarity and cutting power? Ambient mic techniques for a solo classical performance in a great room are quite different than focus instrument in a busy mix.
Farview
Well-known member
Actually, since you've already recorded it, just turn off one of the mics and pan the other one center. See if that helps. Eq and compress to taste.
Also try panning them both center. As long as the phase is good, and the sound doesn't get hollow or strange sounding, you can use both. Send them to a group and compress the group.
I understand that it may not be appropriate to really compress a solo classical guitar performance, but it is appropriate to compress the lead instrument in a busy mix.
Also try panning them both center. As long as the phase is good, and the sound doesn't get hollow or strange sounding, you can use both. Send them to a group and compress the group.
I understand that it may not be appropriate to really compress a solo classical guitar performance, but it is appropriate to compress the lead instrument in a busy mix.
