Popular Music - limiting & 0db

andrushkiwt

andrushkiwt

Well-known member
So, my newest master came on my playlist after Breaking Benjamin's "Diary of Jane". Needless to say , I had to crank the volume up to hear mine comparatively to the BB tune. Out of curiousity, I sent the BB track into my mastering suite and looked around.

First thing, I see that the track (at K14) is pushing 0db almost constantly. Even during the quiter verses. Is this some type of brick wall limiting - where they push the compressor and limiter with a hard ceiling?
It is constantly at the point where you think "it's about to clip", but never does (with my master fader set at 0 and not touching anything - just inserting the file and playing it). RMS on K14 was always around -6 to -5

Also, there is a lot of activity around 3.5kHz when there are no vocals. Just thought that was interesting - presence on their guitars must be very hot.

I'm curious about the 0db thing...what ya guys think
 
Not unusual at all these days (unfortunately) to see program material constantly tapping at -0dBFS. And that has nothing to do with the crest factor (which is more or less the relationship between the peak and the RMS level). Not exactly sure what you're curious about unless you're not using anything for the sake of perceived volume (and personally and IMO/E, you shouldn't be doing anything of the sort during the mixing phase anyway for hopefully obvious reasons).

Analog limiters, digital brickwall limiters, AD clipping, interesting little algorithms -- There are a lot of ways to keep a signal hovering just under the ceiling.
 
[QUOTE/] Not exactly sure what you're curious about [/QUOTE]

Geez. I'm just saying that the verses are pushing the same level as the chorus, yet I perceive the chorus as bigger and louder. Whatever dynamics im sensing are minimal. I couldn't imagine pushing my music to these extremes - yet, average listener notices nothing and doesn't complain much.

I feel guilty setting my limiter to +7 with a -0.1 threshold. Maybe if I had your expertise I wouldn't need to question anything or wonder about these things. The useful info in the comment was bogged down by the tone I sensed. Thank you anyways.
 
Im no pro in mastering but i'd say they automate some settings on the mastering chain when necessary to get louder levels on softer parts... Someone could prove me wrong on that thought.
 
The useful info in the comment was bogged down by the tone I sensed.
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Wasn't really trying to put forth any negative tone... If it was something about the "not doing nasty stuff during the mixing phase" then that was just that -- Keep those high-res versions. It's a good thing. Smash 'em if you need to later but don't get rid of the copy of how you actually wanted it to sound. Too many people throw all sorts of crap on the main buss trying to "compete" and they lose what they were shooting for in the first place.
they automate some settings on the mastering chain when necessary to get louder levels on softer parts
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Without a doubt. Another sad reality. But yes - All the time.
 
Don't know if anyone else has the same experience, but compared to most commercial material the K scales are quite a conservative mesure of loudness (as in, they want things quite a lot less squashed than a lot of commercial material is currently). Seems to limit their usefulness as a comparative tool (as a lot of stuff just redlines the meters)...
 
is there some technical aspect i'm not realizing here - as in, the track isn't really that hot OR it's actually hotter and clipping than my meters are showing? What I did was convert the .mp3 to a .wma (for a cd burn for a friend) and then converted that to a .wav. Then, I inserted it into the suite and just watched the meter slam that redline at 0 without ever going over...

i'm not 100% sure if that method gives an accurate read or not (even assuming my meters are quality).
 
whatever the default is set to when I open the mastering suite (at work atm). Studio One 2 Pro. But then I select k14.
 
Jake_JW said:
Don't know if anyone else has the same experience, but compared to most commercial material the K scales are quite a conservative mesure of loudness (as in, they want things quite a lot less squashed than a lot of commercial material is currently). Seems to limit their usefulness as a comparative tool (as a lot of stuff just redlines the meters)...
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That was the point of the K system. Bob is desperately trying to bring dynamics back (and I applaud him for it). But yeah, the "real-world" usage of that system is a bit (dare I say it?) limited...
 
Massive Master said:
But yeah, the "real-world" usage of that system is a bit (dare I say it?) limited...
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:facepalm:

It's a shame really, it's just never really caught on & the K-system has been largely overtaken by LUFS as a standard measurement. Still better than relying on Peak/RMS but it's doesn't imply any judgement of how loud things should be, just tells you how loud they are.
 
so, if you inserted a .wav file into your mastering program, didn't touch or insert anything, and just watched, would you assume you're seeing an accurate representation of the track?
 
Jake_JW said:
Yup. If you don't add any processing yourself then you should be hearing the file accurately :)
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to take it up one notch: how far would guess the input on the limiters is raised? probably a -0.01 threshold, but how much input? +10db or more? Very slow release times? Maybe a compressor prior to the limiter and even a MBC before that? Hard to tell without hearing, but it sounds like the typical hard rock tune circa 2008 that is loud and nearly pumping throughout.
 
It'll all depend on what the levels in the mix are.

It's basically impossible to retroactively comment on someone elses gain staging (with regards to how much gain they added with the limiter/maximiser) without looking at their project files, we don't even know which software they used to make the track - I know what I'd do but thats not going to be the same thing, and I almost certainly use different stuff...
 
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