Phase in Drum Tracks

Nola

Nola

Well-known member
Do you pros correct phase in the drum tracks?

If so, does that give an unnatural sound? It seems like we hear drums in a natural room out of phase since things are hitting our ears at different times. I'm wondering if correcting phase can be applied to midi drums, too. Would you render the samples then correct phase?
 
It's a thing, sure.
Whether it's necessary or desirable is subject to huge debate but, certainly, some people will render their virtual instrument drum tracks and move things around for stronger kick/snare/whatever.
Obviously it's not possible to make everything line up with everything where legit overheads are involved, but a common approach is to move kick and snare tracks so that they're in alignment with their content in the overheads.

I've encountered people who think this is the devil's work, and others who wouldn't consider mixing drums without doing this.

You could do it by sending each VI track to a DAW track and using sample-level delay plugins but, of course, then you have no visual cue.
Good thing? Bad thing? You decide. ;)

I suppose the big difference between doing this with real drums and VI drums is in the bleed.
In theory the overhead time relationships should be the same as with a real kit, if they maintained the physical setup for all of the tracking,
but you wouldn't have snare bleed on a hi hat track, for example, as far as I know.
 
Thanks, Steen. Can you simply render out the midi and then manually line it up by eye in the DAW? I see there are plugins that claim to fix phase, but at least with the Waves one you still have to line it up so I'm not sure the point if that's all that's required.
 
In most suites you can send each drum/channel to an audio track in your DAW so I guess you could set up each VI track with a corresponding DAW track and manually record the whole lot in one pass?
If you maintain that setup with the sends and inputs, then it would be easy to re-do, should you need to make any midi changes at any time.

A lot of people would opt for this set up, but without the actual recording, for the purposes of using whatever plugins they want on individual tracks from the VI.
I do generally bus the kick and snare out for to DAW audio tracks so I can use third party eqs/comps/verbs.
There'd never be any audio on the track - Just a live processor.
Maybe some even let you insert third party plugins inside the VI? I don't know - Never seen it but would make sense. Anyway... Not what you asked. :p

Alternatively I guess you can just solo each VI track and bounce, one by one, then import all your bounces, but that would be one pass per VI track - More time consuming, and way more hassle if you need to re-do it at any point.
 
If a spaced pair is used for the overheads it's pretty futile to line things up. With a coincident pair it's entirely possible. The idea is to match a given close mic's signal to its arrival in the overheads.

I don't always do it, but when I do I start by moving the overheads to the snare, then I move everything else (toms and kick) to match the overheads.

Don't expect time alignment to work for phase issues between close mics. The solution to that is isolation by relative distance (3:1 rule of thumb) and polar pattern.
 
True enough; I should have said, if someone intends to strengthen the kick/snare with the overheads, it of relies on the overheads being in the same place or each the same distance from the kick and/or snare.
I've seen guys go to great lengths to ensure this is the case.
 
Would it be safe to say that if the sample are recorded with the 3:1 rule and are of high quality, then fixing phase won't do much?
From what I am reading it seems the best place to fix phase is in the recording process not after. And that aligning things won't do much. Is this accurate? Thanks, guys!
 
A couple videos I just saw on this topic, or at least closely related. (Part of a series on mixing steps/prep - he's got a couple playlists covering this.)
Short version
YouTube

Long version
YouTube
 
I think the general rule of getting it right at the source is always above any other, but a lot of the time when people try to time align kicks/snares to OH, for example, it's not because of a phase 'issue' as such. It's more like a preference.
It's important to separate the two, in my opinion.

If there's an issue or problem then that's a result of bad or incorrect miking and yes, should definitely be corrected at the source.

Any movement of the kick or snare recorded track will change something, even with unknown overheads. It might make the kick/snare sound stronger, weaker, bassier, more midrangey. A ms or two will probably make an audible difference.

How you approach the miking should be based on what you intend to do with the recording.
If time aligning kick and snare are important to you then mic with XY overheads, or overheads each placed equal distance from kick and snare.

That way, if/when you manually time align, it's possible to have the snare perfectly time aligned in overhead left, overhead right, and snare close mic, by moving the snare track only.

The thing with spot mics is that 3-1 is probably observed the majority of the time whether intentionally or not.
Realistically they're usually an inch or two from the skin, I guess, but the mics are maybe a foot apart, so phase 'problems' aren't likely to exist here, but there'll still be bleed of some kind and that will always contribute to the over all sound (good/bad) unless gated or edited.

This isn't even a factor with VIs (that I've used) because there is no bleed between close mics.


idk...I think I view this time aligning thing a little bit like auto-tune.
It's not really necessary and we didn't do it years ago, but it's become an expected sound in a lot of modern music genres.
 
I always check phase on live drums and never on samples-the whole point of checking phase is when a whole kit is mic'd you have multiple sources hitting multiple diaphragms at different times which is not the case with individual samples, so as long as everything is on the beat its supposed to be on it should be fine
 
I like the kick and snare to be centered in the overheads, whether or not I'm going to align anything. If the overheads are really just cymbal mics it's not necessary, but I'm usually doing a more traditional style of drum recording. So the X-Y isn't oriented as you might assume, it's angled to put the kick and snare right down its center line.

In the example below, it would have been better to get out from the wall, but it's a multipurpose space so we compromise. And the wall is treated under the black fabric. I don't think I have the overheads perfectly aligned here, but it was during bass overdubs, so that's not a big deal. It gets the idea across.

XY Drum Mics left.jpg

XY Drum Mics right.jpg
 
I do the same thing as BSG, placing the overheads so the kick and snare are both centered. (impossible with a double kick set, then I just center on the snare and balance the kicks)

I never 'fix' the phase unless there is a problem. When there is, it's because I'm relying on the overheads for most of the sound and just using the close mics to fill. If the close mics are your primary sound source, there is no point to moving anything, unless you actually hear a problem.
 
Farview said:
I never 'fix' the phase unless there is a problem. When there is, it's because I'm relying on the overheads for most of the sound and just using the close mics to fill. If the close mics are your primary sound source, there is no point to moving anything, unless you actually hear a problem.
Click to expand...

Cool thanks guys.
If you bring in the close mic'd snare to fill in the sound, how would you align it with the overhead in terms of phase? Since the overhead has so many sounds in it how do you know what to align the close mic'd snare with, or do you just do it by ear?
 
If you choose to align it it's usually pretty obvious once you have everything on the screen in front of you.
Doing it by ear is ideal and admirable but, realistically, if someone's going to the lengths of time aligning things, they're doing it by numbers.

A snare hit in the over heads is going to show up pretty clearly, even if there are other simultaneous sounds.
 
I just do it by ear one at time. Usual order overheads, kick , snare but it can vary. You can do the flip with just the o/heads and snare and its pretty obvious if there is an issue. I mean you'll hear it immediately if its off
 
Nola said:
Cool thanks guys.
If you bring in the close mic'd snare to fill in the sound, how would you align it with the overhead in terms of phase? Since the overhead has so many sounds in it how do you know what to align the close mic'd snare with, or do you just do it by ear?
Click to expand...
In the video he shows how to single out the primary source, like a kick or a snare, and then just monitor that track with the overhead track in mono, and toggle the phase of the overhead track, listening for a difference in the sound of the kick/snare. If it sounds better one way or the other, you have a phase problem, if it's the same, no problem. Now, he just leaves the phase where it sounds best, and my assumption is that's probably fine for 98% of the situations. If you want to try sliding wave forms around to line up, go ahead, I suppose. I think it makes sense to approach it with a mono switch on the master so you're clearly comparing simple electrical wave phase (or polarity).
 
I'm hereby making it a bannable offence to say phase and mean polarity.
There'll be announcement tomorrow and the TOS will be updated but consider yourselves warned. ;)

Seriously though, toggling polarity in a situation where there's a phase issue is pot luck.
Two signals can be out of phase and have opposite polarity; They're two very different things. (yeah yeah...that's obvious, everyone knows....Just saying!) :p
 
^^^1
To my ears flipping the polarity is all about the bottom, whereas phase issues I hear as flanging or hollowness in the mids usually. Two separate issues much of the time
 
Steenamaroo said:
I'm hereby making it a bannable offence to say phase and mean polarity.
There'll be announcement tomorrow and the TOS will be updated but consider yourselves warned. ;)

Seriously though, toggling polarity in a situation where there's a phase issue is pot luck.
Two signals can be out of phase and have opposite polarity; They're two very different things. (yeah yeah...that's obvious, everyone knows....Just saying!) :p
Click to expand...

https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...ity-vs-phase-361438/?highlight=phase+polarity
 
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