panning mono tracks for stereo mixdown

smg

Member
Appreciate any feedback/tips re- pan position of individual tracks for mixdown...i.e.

How wide a stereo field do you set up...?

How many tracks are center panned...?

When an instrumental part is on 2 tracks instead of 1 what type of pan position do you use....hard L/R or somewhere between that and center....?

Also in terms of having either a stereo mix copied back to 2 tracks or a stereo bounce on 2 tracks,
what type of positioning do you use when adding this to the final mixdown...?

I'm using a Tascam DP-008ex but any similar recording situation is applicable(i.e.either mono tracks or a submix made from mono tracks mixed down to stereo then copied back to 2 tracks from the stereo master-been using this approach to set up the drum track like a drum buss)

In addition interested in any info re- how using reverb factors into the stereo field produced ....
 
I wrote an article 10 or 20 years ago for Recording Magazine titled "Binary Opposition As An Aesthetic Strategy For Recording/Mixing" that addressed some of these questions/issues in excruciating detail (some might say "excruciatingly pretentious detail") but my Cliff Notes answers are:

- as wide as necessary to create/frame the desired sonic portrait
- generally fewer than half
- wherever best fills in the appropriate spaces between the outermost edges of the aforementioned sonic portrait and dead center. (Key word being "appropriate")
 
Thx for the reply Bob-I tried to find the article over at Recording mag site but it wasn't available through search-if it is still in existence online I'd appreciate getting a chance to take a look at it ....
 
It's almost entirely a matter of taste. Any specific advice we give has certainly been violated innumerable times in hit songs over the years.

The general rules of thumb are to keep low frequency things like kick and bass guitar in the middle, along with lead vocals and the snare drum (in rock mixes, at least). Other than that, use your ears and your judgement. Go full-on LCR or go mono, or somewhere in between. It's up to you...you're the engineer :)
 
What about the " replicating the actual drum set layout "approach where you have the snare @ about 15% L relative to the kick in the center,hihat @ 25%,L etc...I've been using this because I'm going for a realistic "live recording" type of effect as opposed to the drums sounding "produced"on the current tracks I'm working on (although I have others that will be using a more "studio creation"type of drum track..).
 
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I find that usually sounds quite good, although I have not strictly followed drumkit layout - cymbals and toms in stereo are nice.

The general advice is good - kick/snare/bass/main vocal centered. But this is not always the case. In my first 5 or 6 albums, I loved putting bass guitar around middle L or R. I did it because it sounded best at the time - what I would end up with is a rhythm guitar centered, lead guitar on one side, bass guitar on the other.

A lot depends on how many tracks you are mixing, and what the music is doing. If its a tune where the bass and kick are locked in a lot, putting them centered is cool. Or maybe in that case, putting them 15% L and R will sound best?

And of course, "kick" or "bass" can be wildly different sounds from one song to the next. If I'm going to Bootsy up my bass, maybe I'll use the stereo outs of my bass pedalboard. Or I might record a dry and wet bass track, and pan them slightly off from each other.

You're a sound painter, man. Know the "rules", and break them as needed.
 
Some of the classic Doors recordings have the drum kit hard panned to one side in mono.

I've tried offsetting the snare slightly, but in the end the minor benefits were not worth the added trouble in achieving a good L-R balance.
 
Actually kick/bass are a big part of what I'm doing and as a result I've been studying a lot online about how to record them and things like range allotment/notching ....I spent a lot of time yest working on getting the bass sound I was hearing w/EQ/compression....then when I added it to the mix it didn't work...!!

I had it in a section w/pad chord background,drums and high conga up in the mix...the bass sound I was hearing that I got after a while was one that had a lot of string sound percussive effect and highs...conflicted w/the conga hits and got buried in the mix..I had it playing a similar rhythmic pattern to the conga...so I re-EQ'd it and got a sound w/more lows and less string sound...worked better ....but I've decided to lay down the bass track along w/the kick in the future at the beginning of the track instead of how I did it...

I had a drum track in place and the pad already recorded when I decided to add the bass line..so I was only able to refer to a sheet I had re- where I boosted/cut the kick EQ instead of balancing them together,checking the result,etc...

The type of bass sound I had in mind is really the type of thing you hear when the bass line is up front w/just drums and maybe a keyboard playing percussive riffs. ....same for the conga...I wanted to get a sound that I was hearing but again it worked great as a focus/ solo sound but not in the mix where the pitch required a lot of pad EQ'ng to get everything to gel ....

Live and learn...

One thing that worked was the built-in low/high shelf EQ in the Tascam... although I got a Samson S curve 1/3 octave graphic I've been using,adding additional track EQ to the bass/pad/drum track along w/experimenting w/different panning took a mix that didn't feel right to a better place overall...

That's why I posted the thread...spent like 5 days messing w/this and wanted to get some panning viewpoints from more experienced people here...greatly appreciate this thread being a live one...
 
If the kick and snare are driving the song (like in most 4/4 rock music) then I'd say keep them straight down the middle. And for anything recorded after the 1960s, having the bass anywhere but straight down the middle sounds downright weird. Unless you're going for a specific effect or something.

Balance levels and panning before you start jacking around with EQ, compression and other FX. That should help you avoid the same mistake that you made with the bass guitar again. Make the big decisions about the mix up front and fiddle with the micro decisions later.
 
For me, whatever is setting the beat goes straight down the middle. Usually, the kick, snare and bass. Then the main melody goes down the middle too; lead vocal, lead solo, etc. I'm all about symmetry, so I balance whatever is on one side with the same timbre and energy on the other side. Energy as in power per frequency kinda thing.

I won't pan the main instruments out too far to either side, but if I'm using odd ball instrument, I might usually stick them way out to the side so they can be heard. Stuff like latin percussion or a violin or whatever.

my two cents....
 
I've often used a slightly "off-center" approach for Kick and Snare, kinda following the OH mic setup, where you drop the center line in-between them.
It's only a very small amount...with the Snare a couple of "ticks" to the right of center, and the Kick a couple of ticks to the left...but I find that it slightly opens that dead-center spot for the lead vocal, and then I'll drop the Bass guitar dead center, since generally it doesn't get in the way of vocals.

If you listened to the mix, you would be hard pressed to really hear that they are slightly off-center...so you still get the Kick and Snare holding the middle of the stereo image, and with the Bass guitar dead-center, it locks it up, and help to also keep the Kick and Bass guitar from fighting as much.

AFA where to pan the rest of the track...like other have said...it really depends on the song. You can go wide or you can go tight.
LCR was mentioned above...and that's not something I've used...but it may be a really good way to get the mix panning started.
Put your key tracks dead center...and then the rest of them go either hard left or hard right. It may actually sound better than one might think.
After you listen to that, you can then decide which, if any of those L/R tracks you want to pan back somewhere in-between L/R and C.

I'm generally hooked on wide L/R stereo images, and I like to fan out various track in the spaces between L/R and C...which I think works better when you have a bunch of tracks that all need to be heard individually along with the lead tracks, as opposed to where you're just using a lot of them to create a backdrop, without making them too obvious individually.

If you have a very sparse mix...then you have the easier options of making the image narrow or wide...because with less tracks, they won't fight each other as much, so you don't have to pan them with as much precision.
One option for very spare productions is to record those few tracks with stereo mics...and by adjust how each track is recorded with the stereo mics...you can pan them during tracking. IOW...if you record a rhythm guitar with stereo mics...by adjusting the mics' position relative to the amp (I assume you're using an amp, ;) )...for that stereo rhythm guitar, you can make it be more left or right or center...etc.
It's a subtle thing...but you can end up with very "3D" like mixes when you record/mix with stereo track...and of course, you still have the option of further panning them more left or right by "tilting" that stereo track within the mix image...if that makes any sense.
I like using stereo tracks...even in denser mixes...and combine them with other, mono panned tracks...so you get a lot of contrast in the mix.
 
Re-last post by Tadpui-

You know that's how I'm thinking too...(re- prioritizing focus aspects vs. secondary concerns)....

To be honest,my approach is still more like a musician/composer than a recording engineer..
i.e.although I have everything laid out to put these tracks together in terms of the drum track/instrumental parts/form/tempo etc and have demos of each made w/a little handheld digital recorder,still I end up making in- the- moment decisions about the material leading to changing things instead of being just focused on recording the tracks/mixing/mastering -point A to point B....and I have so much material ready to re-do w/the "professionally mastered" sound as a a goal result that I really have to develop the skill set necessary to take these demos tracks to the next level instead of getting bogged down in minute details..

I.have gradually been getting used to switching from a focus on developing the material 360 to spending a lot of time listening to a track to get it right and dealing w/all the elements of the recording process...

Takes a different mindset to go from working w/beats/chord patterns etc to thinking like a recording engineer does about the tracks...

Anyways I spent a couple of years just working things out musically so now I'll be moving more in the direction of getting these tracks finished and developing a streamlined approach to knocking these out instead of things taking forever like they inevitably do at the beginning...for ex.I now have some go- to EQ/compression settings to use for specific instruments instead of wondering about how to use these- which has happened within the last couple of months....


(After posting this I saw the other replies above- will post some more once I read them over...).
 
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... to thinking like a recording engineer does about the tracks...

The recording engineer will do the tracks like the producer wants. :D

So you should continue to approach panning/mixing like a musician/composer...and only put on the engineer's hat when you have to sort out the technical stuff.
I see people spend way too much time trying to mix as though it's a mathematical problem that needs to be solved...as though there is a specific answer.
Mix more like an impressionist painter...however you feel gets the most compelling/exciting sound...and not like a construction project. ;)

I've been reading stuff lately about the value of ignoring the right/wrong of it...and just going for a sonic impact, rather than what is sonically "correct".
IOW...it doesn't matter if people love or hate your music...as long as it draws out an emotional reaction.
Someone was saying how even when people hate on some radio song...they still end up listening to it over and over...just to hate on it. :p
So the song gets the play time anyway...which is the whole point.
I don't mean you should intentionally make lousy music just to get a reaction...just that you will never, ever please everyone...so who cares...please yourself first.
 
What about the " replicating the actual drum set layout "approach where you have the snare @ about 15% L relative to the kick in the center,hihat @ 25%,L etc...I've been using this because I'm going for a realistic "live recording" type of effect as opposed to the drums sounding "produced"on the current tracks I'm working on (although I have others that will be using a more "studio creation"type of drum track..).

Even though that is how the kit is set up, the listener is never standing close enough to the drums to be able to notice. For a realistic soundstage, you might want to imagine where the listener will be standing, then start panning things from there.

The thing about having the kick, snare, bass and vocal in the center is about giving the focal points of the song strength. These are the elements that drive the song, putting them in the middle gives them more weight.
 
For me, whatever is setting the beat goes straight down the middle. Usually, the kick, snare and bass. Then the main melody goes down the middle too; lead vocal, lead solo, etc. I'm all about symmetry, so I balance whatever is on one side with the same timbre and energy on the other side. Energy as in power per frequency kinda thing.

I won't pan the main instruments out too far to either side, but if I'm using odd ball instrument, I might usually stick them way out to the side so they can be heard. Stuff like latin percussion or a violin or whatever.

my two cents....

^^^^ Chili put it perfectly IMO. I know there's no definite right or wrong here.....but...to me....if the symmetry is off......I have trouble listening. Try having the symmetry off and listening with ear buds or cans. Way back......when the Beatles and others had drums off to the side on early stereo recordings (due to lack of tracks etc) .......lots of what we heard came through a single speaker.....radio....car....etc. As stereo appeared more and more in listening products.........so did the use of symmetry in both volume and tone. While much of the practice of centering certain aspects of a music recording likely came from the live listening experience........drums middle.....two guitars one left one right.....bass playing with bass drum....etc.....if your sitting in front of the band.........I think symmetry and balance were almost required once albums were played on 2 speaker systems.

Ok.....enough rambling.......my 2 cents worth.
 
I don't have advice on this subject really, just a comment of my taste (or lack thereof). Maybe it's simple nostalgia with me, or age, or both...but I love the recording panning techniques from about '65 thru 75'. I love the bizarre hard panning (vocals hard left, drum kit hard right, etc. etc.). I understand that this was just the sign of the times with figuring out multi-track recording and stereophonics. I don't do this with my own home recording music, but I can't say that I'm not tempted to do it from time to time. I understand those that wouldn't like it though. Just me.
 
I've often used a slightly "off-center" approach for Kick and Snare, kinda following the OH mic setup, where you drop the center line in-between them.
Funny thing, I used to set my overheads so the center line had the kick and snare dead center. With a typical 5 piece setup, that also puts the toms in the standard panning positions...
 
Really appreciate the replies/discussion going on here...since so many knowledgeable people are involved,figured I'd bring up the related topic of mid/side panning I've been reading about and see how this applies to things.....not sure I understand it/wonder if it requires special equipment or is just another
panning option......
 
One reason to center low frequency instruments is that human hearing loses directionality below about 300Hz. If listening on speakers it might sound okay to have bass panned, but in headphones where the acoustic cross bleed doesn't happen it can be rather disconcerting to have low frequencies isolated to one ear or the other. But, as it happens, I sometimes have to mix things with panned low frequency instruments, so I place a 300Hz HPF on the difference (side) channel.
 
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