panning mono tracks for stereo mixdown

The process you're describing-using a true stereo track that splits the signal into adjustable L/R positions within the track itself combined w/mono tracks and then the resulting mix transferred to a stereo mix track made up of these components... and the methodology I'm talking about using should produce the same results (although it'll require more tracks to achieve) if I'm not mistaken...

No...not really.
Mono tracks used to create a stereo mix don't/won't sound like tracks recorded with stereo mics that are then used to create a stereo mix.

Stereo mixes made from mono tracks are not the same as a stereo recordings, which capture the source as a complete L/R image, while mono tracks do not, so you won't somehow get that just by panning mono tracks.
 
Now I see what you're talking about Miroslav (like you yesterday not being familiar w/DP008ex rec processes) + was thinking in terms of my approach using a keyboard workstation/drum machine in home studio context contrasted w/rec live instruments w/stereo mike techniques to produce the stereo track...

Given the difference in approaches I still am focusing on using the underlying concept of combining stereo track pairs and mono tracks to produce the final mix result...

What about bouncing tracks/stereo master tracks results comparison - anybody use these kinds of processes?

Like to get a sense of how these two similar techniques used to set up tracks for the final nixdiwn would work...in terms of getting an end result w/as much of the

-3D imaging" referred to above
-separation/
-width
depth of stereo field and imaging etc

as possible within the limitations of my current equipment set up.....as opposed to a muddy mix result that doesn't have each part clearly/distinctly audible within the overall stereo spread...

Again the tracks I'm making aren't that complicated in terms of parts I.e.currently working on drum/clavinet rhythmic focus track...so unlike situations where multiple instrumental parts are recorded
to 50 tracks, I 'n just setting things up using 8 tracks

-first making the drum track by recording each part of the kit to a mono track then mixing them down to stereo master track as described in post above then using this combined w/the instrumental parts rec to other mono tracks/stereo pairs/bounces to produce the final mix...so I'm thinking the results will be managable in terms of panning etc within the context of the equipment being used...

IOW I realize many of the people who've replied to this and other threads I've started are working w/equipment/DAW etc that have a lot more advanced capacities than what I'm working with but I'm interested in seeing how much of the professional recording techniques used I can simulate w/my set up...
 
View attachment 102921

I use the line that goes straight out as my center point...and it splits the Snare and Kick...so they each sit slightly Left/Right of the line.
To have them both be dead-center on the line...it would come in on an angle, which skews the kit to the right.

Of course...a lot depends on how the drum is set up and the position of the OH mics...so how/where one draws the center line isn't as critical as how the mics are picking up the kit.

I'm just saying that I like to set the Snare and Kick a couple of tick off-center, rather than both dead-center. Just enough to open up the center a tiny bit for the lead stuff and the bass guitar (which you would want dead-center with it's LF content.

I use the angled line to center my overheads on, especially if I am using an XY setup. With a double kick setup I will center on the drummer's face pointing forward, but those kits tend to be set along those center lines, whereas a single kick setup tends to be lob-sided towards the floor toms.
 
I use the angled line to center my overheads on, especially if I am using an XY setup. With a double kick setup I will center on the drummer's face pointing forward, but those kits tend to be set along those center lines, whereas a single kick setup tends to be lob-sided towards the floor toms.


Got it.

I use to have my studio kit set up with floor toms on both sides, and double Kicks...it was a really big kit.
I just kept adding on to it, and it kinda got out of hand. :D
Now it's been stripped down to more of a "Ringo" size kit.

Anyway...it's probably a lot of hair-splitting where the center line is or how you rotate the whole kit in the L/R image.
Heck...when I was using the big kit...I was going for the really wide drum sound...which was cool, but now I've tightened it up quite a bit, and I don't push the toms or cymbals out real far.
That's one of the things that bugged me with my sample kits from Toontrack when I would use them...some of the kits were recorded really wide...the cymbals are like at the far L/R ends, and it feels like you're sitting inside the drum kit setup. I now edit the cymbal panning whenever I use the Toontrack kits.

That said, I still like to have the Kick and Snare just a tad off-center.
 
Just found an older thread from 2006 in the Mixing Techniques forum called "Do you ever bounce drums to one stereo track?" that directly addresses the exact issues being discussed here...uncanny how much the thread describes the very same thing I'm currently doing....
 
Just wanted to post this for everyone who has contributed to this thread being a source of good info-
Things that were touched on that I'd like more feedback/tips for-

Mid/side processing(BSG)

Stereo/mono tracking and panning(Miroslav)

Bass approach(BFS)

and any views on the thread subject based on the way different people set up their track panning
positions to get the stereo depth of field result....
 
Re: drum overhead placement and stereo image. It's easier to move the kick and/or snare off center with the close mics when the overheads are capturing them centered than to center them when the overheads are capturing them off center. Centering them in the overheads gives you the option while letting them get shifted by the overheads limits your options.
 
Re: drum overhead placement and stereo image. It's easier to move the kick and/or snare off center with the close mics when the overheads are capturing them centered than to center them when the overheads are capturing them off center. Centering them in the overheads gives you the option while letting them get shifted by the overheads limits your options.

Well...I think maybe people are assuming some extremes about the "off-center" thing...but regardless, you can make a production decision at the git-go...or save it all for later (which seems to be a norm these days)...either way, it's not that critical, IMO.
Also, if you center them with the mics (as discussed earlier), then you're unnaturally rotating the kit to the left (right-handed drummer's perspective)....so you're already skewing/tilting drum setup...and you can just as easily "tilt" the whole kit after the fact with the OH mic tracks, and still end up with same Kick/Snare-centered result. Tilt the OH mics now or tilt the OH mics later...especially with a M/S OH setup, which is my preferred.

I mean...it's all good...and not a single listener will ever say, "The Kick isn't dead center" or "The Toms are too far off" this way or that way...etc. I mean, we've already gone beyond the "capturing a kit naturally" thing when we start manipulating the mix, and there's a lot of room for how to place your kit in a mix. :)
 
Rotating the overheads doesn't rotate the image, it just narrows it slightly. But if the snare isn't physically centered then an attempt to move it to center can shift the whole image.

I'm not suggesting that there's anything objectively wrong with having the snare off center in the overheads, I just prefer it to be centered. I start with a literal representation of the kit and then idealize it with a centered kick and snare.
 
I'm looking at this image:

View attachment 102921

If you turn/place your OH mics to follow the "angled" line in order to have both Snare and Kick centered...you end up rotating/tilting the whole kit in the stereo image, to the left.

If you're just talking about centering the Snare...then the mics would move horizontally, but no rotation/tilt.
 
Right, but it doesn't have to be directly over the snare. It can be moved to the right and angled toward the snare to keep the left and right groups of cymbals at about the same distance to the mics.
 
Here's the track panning I'm currently using for a track made w/dtums/clavinet-...it's basically just a vamp that has different rhythmic patterns for the clavinet and a lot of kick /snare interplay with the
keyboard( i.e.fills )along w/an eight bar drum break like "Funky Drummer"-

Kick-"layered" effect by using 2 tracks w/different EQ panned about 15-20% R/L

Snare @ 10% L

Hihat @ 20% L

Cymbal( crash )@15%,R

Clav on 2 mono tracks panned apart L/R middle

Appreciate any feedback re-panning used and whether( given the sparse mix) wider panning including using hard L/R should be involved....

Also my approach to finishing this could be-

Stereo mixdown of 8 tracks or

Mixing the 6 drum tracks( inc one not listed above used for a hihat accent fill section)down to stereo then the process described in previous posts used to copy it back to 2 tracks and repeating this for the 2 clav tracks so the result would be 4 tracks of a stereo mix made from each that could then be mixed down to stereo again..and using multi band compression to tweak each of the 2 stereo submixes then a final use of mbc /normalization/limiter on the end result stereo mix..
 
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I'm looking at this image:

View attachment 102921

If you turn/place your OH mics to follow the "angled" line in order to have both Snare and Kick centered...you end up rotating/tilting the whole kit in the stereo image, to the left.

If you're just talking about centering the Snare...then the mics would move horizontally, but no rotation/tilt.

Sure. But that also puts the hi Tom more over to one side, instead of the middle. (Since they sit on top of the kick) if you set the overheads along the straight line, all but the big tom next to the hat will be in the center and right of center, making the kit lopsided.
 
Sure. But that also puts the hi Tom more over to one side, instead of the middle. (Since they sit on top of the kick) if you set the overheads along the straight line, all but the big tom next to the hat will be in the center and right of center, making the kit lopsided.

Well...that image is not of my kit setup. As I said previously, I had double Kicks...and floor Tom on the left side also, so that spread out and balanced the kit layout pretty evenly.
With a smaller setup, I'm mainly panning the Kick and Snare spot mics a little off center, and then the OH mic tracks are adjusted for width, to taste.
 
Well...that image is not of my kit setup. As I said previously, I had double Kicks...and floor Tom on the left side also, so that spread out and balanced the kit layout pretty evenly.
With a smaller setup, I'm mainly panning the Kick and Snare spot mics a little off center, and then the OH mic tracks are adjusted for width, to taste.

With double kicks, I will do more of the straight line thing, but I generally have the overheads higher up and high pass them at 300hz. (since double kick means heavy metal around these parts)
 
When you HP @ 300 do you later boost/cut anywhere else? Just curious about what type of kick sound you're going after..did a lot of kick EQ'ng on last track( see post above) and wouldn't mind info re-specific Hz i.e.the batter sound around 2-4k....
 
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